Neumann KH80+KH750 'Unvarnished Review'

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks for the update, Mike. I'm pleased you've found that the DSP functions work well -- as they should.

However, happy as I am with the concept, I have to say that three things really put me off it.

1) the Remote app is only available on an iPad,

and 2) they've been working on this app quite literally for bloomin' years now, and it's still only available on the iPad.

There is simply no excuse for that...

oh, and 3) not everyone has a frickin' iPad!

I don't have a current iPad and I have absolutely no intention of buying one just to perform a one-time setup of a DSP speaker system.

They really do need to produce a Mac/PC control app as a matter of extreme urgency because if I went down this route I'd want to be able to set up my DSP speakers from the computer, not a tablet. At a push I could be persuaded to do it from an Android phone... but they haven't even provided that option!

I don't know the reason for this extreme tardiness in porting the control app to other platforms; I can't believe it's a rational policy decision, so I can only assume Neumann either doesn't have sufficient in-house expertise, or can't or won't find appropriate external support for some reason.

It's very disappointing, and especially when their competitors can manage multi-platform configuration facilities.

[James Perrett]

They really do need to produce a Mac/PC control app as a matter of extreme urgency because if I went down this route I'd want to be able to set up my DSP speakers from the PC, or at a push, an Android phone...

Or perhaps publish the communications protocol so that third parties can build the control functionality into their apps.

[Aled Hughes]

The K80 are very tempting indeed, and Gear4Music have pairs for what seems an exceptionally good price at the moment.

I don't want to start a new whole new thread about it, so I'll ask here:

If I were to buy a pair of KH80, it would mean movving on my AE22. Does anyone have experience of both? Would it be an upgrade or more of a sideways step?

I really like the AE22, but I use the KH120 often and like them too - but I don't think they're a clear step up in quality either.

The portablility of the KH80 appeals, as well as the fact that its a current, supported product.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think the DSP correction built in to the KH80 makes it a small but worthwhile step up from the KH120 in terms of midrange clarity and precision, so by extension it would also be a small but worthwhile step up from the AE22...

...but the AE22 has a greater ability to put out low end welly than either the KH120 or the KH80, if that's important to you.

[Drew Stephenson]

The portablility of the KH80 appeals, as well as the fact that its a current, supported product.

They really are quite dinky so even putting them back in their very well padded boxes still leaves them as a very compact option for taking on location.

[Mike Senior]

1) the Remote app is only available on an iPad,
and 2) they've been working on this app quite literally for bloomin' years now, and it's still only available on the iPad.
There is simply no excuse for that...
oh, and 3) not everyone has a frickin' iPad!
I don't have a current iPad and I have absolutely no intention of buying one just to perform a one-time setup of a DSP speaker system.

Agree 100% there. That is a duffer. Reading between the lines of my conversation with Neumann R&D, I think the problem is simply that they underestimated the difficulty of developing the app, and therefore haven't invested enough time and manpower into that part of the project. I got the sense that it had been a bit of a headache for them. Fortunately, the annoyance of this is mitigated somewhat by the system being cracking value even in the Local Control Mode.

Oh, and given that the setup will for most people be a set-and-forget business, some people may be able to circumvent this limitation in practice by borrowing an iPad from a friend. Er, and maybe a WIFI router and some ethernet cables too...

[Wonks]

I'm sure Hugh and Paul will be more than happy to use the SOS iPad and routers to go round the country setting them up for SOS readers.

[Aled Hughes]

I think the DSP correction built in to the KH80 makes it a small but worthwhile step up from the KH120 in terms of midrange clarity and precision, so by extension it would also be a small but worthwhile step up from the AE22...

...but the AE22 has a greater ability to put out low end welly than either the KH120 or the KH80, if that's important to you.

Thanks Hugh.

Low end would not really be an issue as, apart from location jobs, they'd be in the same room as a massive pair of ATCs anyway.

And if they ever were to find a new home where the extra low end would be welcome, there's always the KH750...

Now to see what my AE22 are worth...

[Watchmaker]

I just received my new KH80s and they are really a massive improvement over the prior pair. I won't say what they were as it's embarrassing but the high end is so much more articulate and there's simply no comparison for the quality of low end reproduction. It's obvious that what I was using before was crap and I used it too long! Not to underestimate the value of room treatment, but a good pair of monitors really does help a lot.

I admit the DSP functionality swayed me away from the direct competition. It gave me an excuse to dust off the mostly useless ipad I have laying around so I feel less foolish for having bought it. Like others, I'm underwhelmed by the app.

The speakers themselves though are so good, I'm going back and remixing the last half dozen pieces, one in particularly difficult mix has finally come to life now that I can hear with reasonable clarity and I'm super excited to get home for the long weekend and lock myself in!

One challenge a lot of us project level folks run into is having neither time nor availability to visit a quality showroom and we're left to make decisions "blind" as it were. With the KH80s I feel confident that I'm getting pro level results from my gear. As I probably couldn't tell the difference between top tier monitors anyway, it's nice to have a set of monitors I grow into knowing they are high quality and highly respected by real pros. Thanks for the in depth review Mike. Very helpful.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ahem...

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/neumann-kh80-dsp

[Watchmaker]

yes, of course, my bad and most humble apologies.

Your's is the article that pricked my ears in the first instance. I've been eyeing new monitors for over a year.I wasn't swayed by these though:

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/adam-t7v
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/focal-alpha-65

I read pretty much every word on SOS This time it comes down to the product and the presentation. Mike's article just sealed the deal.

[Hugh Robjohns]

[Mike Senior]

I read pretty much every word on SOS This time it comes down the product and the presentation. Mike's article just sealed the deal.

Go Team SOS!

[Drew Stephenson]

Have to say, I am wondering how much you get for a kidney these days. Lightly used...

[Wonks]

Have to say, I am wondering how much you get for a kidney these days. Lightly used...

You've already sold two.

[Drew Stephenson]

Oh, I wonder what this is then? What does a spleen look like?

[Wonks]

Vented, I believe.

[Mike Senior]

Vented, I believe.

[Hugh Robjohns]

[badboygolf16v]

I've currently got 2 x KH80 and a KH805 and was considering replacing the KH805 with a KH750 as the size and DSP features really appeal.

My concern is the much higher level of distortion, as shown in the specs on the Neumann website.

I wondered if anyone has heard both and is able to comment?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Which specs are you referring to, please?

The 805 delivers 110.7dB max SPL in half space, while the 750 manages 105dB SPL, both having their maximum level defined as the point of 3% THD at 1m. The figures seem plausible given their relative sizes.

I can also see a spec for the SPL at 0.5% for the 805, which is at 95dB SPL, but I can't see the equivalent figure for the 750 on the website. The manual for the 750 gives even fewer specs than the website!

[badboygolf16v]

Thanks for the reply.

I was looking at the Harmonic Distortion graphs that can be found in the Data tabs here: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp and here: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-805.

[ro5]

I noticed that KH750 DSP can also process the audio going to the analog Neumann monitors (like the KH120 and KH310) and I was wondering if that would also work well with other analog monitors from another vendor, like a cheaper pair of IKM iLouds or JBL 30xP's or 104's.

I doesn't look like the DSP software/app calibrates itself with a microphone (like e.g. Sonarworks) and this needs to be done either by preset guestimates or manually by ear. Is there any guidance on how to best achieve this?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks for the reply.

I was looking at the Harmonic Distortion graphs that can be found in the Data tabs here: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp and here: https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-805.

Oooh.. sorry.. I forgot all about this question.

I'll enquire of someone who will know, but I suspect the reason the 750 produces more is because it's a smaller vented box working the driver harder to achieve the same (high) SPL.

[Hugh Robjohns]

So, here's the knowledgeable response from someone who genuinely knows his onions on this subject:

The KH 750 and KH 805 are quite different acoustically both in physical cabinet size and design (vented vs. sealed), and that basically explains the difference in distortion.

However, the driver in the KH 750 is actually a bit better as it is a newer design.

Something to remember, though, is that there are two other major factors affecting distortion: how loud are you playing, and what kind of material? Loud bassy hip hop is clearly going to demand way more effort from the subwoofer than some gentle Val Doonican*.

Also, if the subwoofer is correctly calibrated to the room it is most likely not working so hard at some frequencies, significantly lowering the distortion compared to that measured in flat anechoic conditions (as shown on the published plots). Usually, it is necessary to roll off the lower frequencies to compensate for room gain, as well as attenuate narrow bands to compensate for resonances, and turn the whole subwoofer down to compensate for wall loading.

So in a practical listening room, rather than an anechoic measurement chamber, the sub will not be working as hard for the same perceived SPL, and so will generate lower levels of distortions anyway.

And if the system is playing at sensible levels most of the self-generated distortions will be below the threshold of hearing or masked by other frequencies in the content itself, and thus not audible.

My correspondent also told me that he uses a pair of KH 80 with a KH 750 in a 3 x 4 m room, and can play the system VERY loud without noticing any distortion from the subwoofer (and he would know what to listen for, believe me!)

So in conclusion, his advice is not to worry about it: the KH 750 paired with KH 80 is an excellent combination.

Hope that helps put your mind at rest.

*Definitely not my choice of listening material, I hasten to add, but the example given by my correspondent! He lives somewhere where the sun rarely shines, so you shouldn't really blame him!