AMP (Fanless) Suggestions for Auratones AND Reftones?

[iasomph]

A class AB amp is certainly more power-efficient at lower signal levels than a Class A amp, but in your situation with very close speakers, the self-noise from an overly powerful amp may well become a problem.

Thanks for the advice. But the self-noise doesn't decrease if I turn down the amp rotary gain? I could have found a good deal on this: https://www.thomann.de/gb/pas_2002pca.htm

One channel knob will be turned completely down, while the other knob will be turned down due to necessity, in order to obtain a good level out of the speaker.

So you are saying that the self noise will still remain the same, even if I turn down the channel rotary knob? If that's the case, of couse I need to discard this choice and thank you a lot for let me avoid a big mistake and then have to re-sell it again

[Hugh Robjohns]

We've been through this.

All electronics generate noise. The more gain, the more noise. The cheaper the design, the more noise....

A high powered amp inherently has more gain than a low powered amp. Ergo, it generates more self-noise.

An input attenuator on an amp can certainly help reduce any noise from a connected source, but it won't make any difference to the self-noise of the amplifier.

I have no experience of the amp you've linked, so I can't say whether self-noise will be an issue or not... But it does strike me as being a bit OTT for an original Auratone.

[iasomph]

We've been through this.

All electronics generate noise. The more gain, the more noise. The cheaper the design, the more noise....

A high powered amp inherently has more gain than a low powered amp. Ergo, it generates more self-noise.

An input attenuator on an amp can certainly help reduce any noise from a connected source, but it won't make any difference to the self-noise of the amplifier.

I have no experience of the amp you've linked, so I can't say whether self-noise will be an issue or not... But it does strike me as being a bit OTT for an original Auratone.

Thanks for the clarifications. I didn't get the difference between the self-noise (which always remains the same) and the noise from connected source. Now it's clearer.

Yes, probably it's too much of an amp for Auratone / Reftone... it's also a huge form factor! I was fascinated by the reviews, but you touched the right point. So...thanks for the advice, I think I will keep searching or just try the cheap Dayton 40 w and see how it goes.

If I go with the Dayton (who only has unbalanced inputs), I've read I need the ART DTI box.

In this case, how to manage the Y cable for summing signals to mono? In which part of the chain is it better to place that cable (should use it for connecting the sound card XLR's to a single XLR of the ART TDI, or the Y cable should go from the ART TDI to the single Auratone)?

Thanks, after this question I think I will need to make you rest a little for tonight, Hugh, you really deserved it!

[ef37a]

That amplifier has a quoted signal to noise ratio of -110dB A weighted and 'if' we can believe that specification would put it on a par with the better amps around. (405 -100dB iirc?)

The power output is 170W into 8 Ohms so it is not the monster I was expecting! Still likely to blow a cone though IMHO. The distortion is given as 0.04% 20-20kHz which only 'ok' compared with state of art but then I doubt you need better.... but yes, overkill.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

If I go with the Dayton (who only has unbalanced inputs), I've read I need the ART DTI box.

Not necessarily. It depends on the monitor controller. Some will be happy to drive unbalanced destinations, and you may be lucky over ground-loops.

In this case, how to manage the Y cable for summing signals to mono? In which part of the chain is it better to place that cable (should use it for connecting the sound card XLR's to a single XLR of the ART TDI, or the Y cable should go from the ART TDI to the single Auratone)?

Again... It depends on the monitor controller. Many will provide a mono output anyway, so a summing lead might not be unnecessary. But if you need to generate a mono output with a DTI box there is a simple but cunning way of linking the outputs using the spare connectors to provide a summed mono signal. I can explain more if it becomes necessary.... But choosing a good monitor controller than can provide a dedicated mono feed for one of the speaker outputs would be the best option.

[iasomph]

If I go with the Dayton (who only has unbalanced inputs), I've read I need the ART DTI box.

Not necessarily. It depends on the monitor controller. Some will be happy to drive unbalanced destinations, and you may be lucky over ground-loops.

In this case, how to manage the Y cable for summing signals to mono? In which part of the chain is it better to place that cable (should use it for connecting the sound card XLR's to a single XLR of the ART TDI, or the Y cable should go from the ART TDI to the single Auratone)?

Again... It depends on the monitor controller. Many will provide a mono output anyway, so a summing lead might not be unnecessary. But if you need to generate a mono output with a DTI box there is a simple but cunning way of linking the outputs using the spare connectors to provide a summed mono signal. I can explain more if it becomes necessary.... But choosing a good monitor controller than can provide a dedicated mono feed for one of the speaker outputs would be the best option.

I think this is clear....more or less!

I looked around monitor controllers, some of the best ones (for the price) seems the Audient Nero (seems almost perfect, I've also read your review). The only downside of this controller, in my opinion, is the impossibility to mute left or right speakers. It's true that I will have a mono Auratone for that, but I wouldn't dislike to be able to listen to mono (single speaker) also on a full range monitor like the Genelec 8341. I think it could be quite useful when creating music and doing some EQ's with a higher grade monitor in Mono, but still working on a full range high end speaker. I could, still, turn one speaker off physically I want (switch it off, lol). Not really the convenient way I'd like BTW. Other than that, it seems to be very flexible in its programming and well made. Also very nice and clear layout.

The Drawmer CMC3 is nice, but it seems it doesn't have the possibility to trim the various outputs....so, not possible to volume match the different speakers (such a pity, this should be a "mandatory" feature for a monitor controller), so basically it would be useless for the input gain best practices we talked about in this thread. Anyway it has the cut right speaker, which Audient can't do.

The Drawmer MC3.1 seems great: has everything, but the price is massive, especially if you think that I would add the monitor controller mainly for driving a mono Auratone. Also, I personally prefer to press just one button and switch to the next speaker, instead of having to press two buttons at the same time every time. I know this is just personal preference.

[iasomph]

That amplifier has a quoted signal to noise ratio of -110dB A weighted and 'if' we can believe that specification would put it on a par with the better amps around. (405 -100dB iirc?)

The power output is 170W into 8 Ohms so it is not the monster I was expecting! Still likely to blow a cone though IMHO. The distortion is given as 0.04% 20-20kHz which only 'ok' compared with state of art but then I doubt you need better.... but yes, overkill.

Dave.

Hi Dave, thanks for your point of view. I'm not competent when speaking about amps, but since this model really got wonderful reviews (and so many wonderful reviews!) on that website, I think there should be a reason for this. But, as you and Hugh said, it would probably be an overkill for these kind of small speakers and would be better to find a less powerful amp that is less risky to produce self-noise with the speakers so close to me.

[zenguitar]

I have an Audient iD14 and you can use one speaker for mono. Just checked the manual for the Nero and it has the same facility. Here's a link to the manual...

https://d9w4fhj63j193.cloudfront.net/Ne ... 20V3.0.pdf

Smart mono mode on page 24.

Andy

[iasomph]

I have an Audient iD14 and you can use one speaker for mono. Just checked the manual for the Nero and it has the same facility. Here's a link to the manual...

https://d9w4fhj63j193.cloudfront.net/Ne ... 20V3.0.pdf

Smart mono mode on page 24.

Andy

I know you can use a speaker in mono......but you should connect a mono speaker to Nero, set it, and you will be listen to that mono speaker in mono whenever you want. Very nice. But what I was speaking about is this:

- Having the chance to listen to two speakers in stereo AND having the possibility to listen to just one of these two speakers (not both together) in mono. That would be possible?

[Hugh Robjohns]

The Drawmer CMC3 is nice, but it seems it doesn't have the possibility to trim the various outputs....so, not possible to volume match the different speakers (such a pity, this should be a "mandatory" feature for a monitor controller), so basically it would be useless for the input gain best practices we talked about in this thread.

Rule 1: budgets bring compromises.

That particular Drawmer controller provides an overall trim facility to optimise the gain structure, but omits i dividual speaker trims as part of its budget saving. The assumption is that most of the connected speakers/amps will have their own individual sensitivity trims to allow level balancing between the different speakers sets. That seems a very reasonable and practical assumption for most users.

But other Drawmer models have individual trims if that's what you want... At higher cost.

The Drawmer MC3.1 seems great: has everything, but the price is massive...

ha ha ha! No, it really isn't! Professional monitor controllers can cost way more than that... And have more and better facilities.

I think the MC3.1 is actually extremely good value for money.

But its Rule 1, isnt it? if you don't want to pay for eveything, you don't get everything!

Also, bear in mind that most DAWs also include elaborate monitor control facilities, and while I don't advocate using their volume controls, the channel muting/mono/ stereo difference switching facilities can still be used in combination with a simpler hardware monitor controller.

H

[zenguitar]

- Having the chance to listen to two speakers in stereo AND having the possibility to listen to just one of these two speakers (not both together) in mono. That would be possible?

That is EXACTLY what the manual described, you can program it to automatically select an individual monitor from a stereo pair when you press the mono button. Take the time to properly read through the manual I linked to.

Andy

[iasomph]

- Having the chance to listen to two speakers in stereo AND having the possibility to listen to just one of these two speakers (not both together) in mono. That would be possible?

That is EXACTLY what the manual described, you can program it to automatically select an individual monitor from a stereo pair when you press the mono button. Take the time to properly read through the manual I linked to.

Andy

Hy Andy, have you tried it? From what I can understand reading page 24 on "smart mono" chapter, they refer to the mono single speaker (that's already connected as a single speaker and assigned to ALT1 or ALT2), or they may refer to having both speakers (assuming ALT1 or ALT2 are stereo pairs) working in mono, not just a single speaker of the pairs.

If it's like you said, how you can chose if having the left or the right speaker working in mono and the other muted?

Of course, if you can prove me wrong, I would just be happy! It would mean that the Nero could almost do all that the Drawmer MC3.1 can do, at half price point It would mainly miss the "band solo" section, but for half price...

[iasomph]

The Drawmer CMC3 is nice, but it seems it doesn't have the possibility to trim the various outputs....so, not possible to volume match the different speakers (such a pity, this should be a "mandatory" feature for a monitor controller), so basically it would be useless for the input gain best practices we talked about in this thread.

Rule 1: budgets bring compromises.

That particular Drawmer controller provides an overall trim facility to optimise the gain structure, but omits i dividual speaker trims as part of its budget saving. The assumption is that most of the connected speakers/amps will have their own individual sensitivity trims to allow level balancing between the different speakers sets. That seems a very reasonable and practical assumption for most users.

But other Drawmer models have individual trims if that's what you want... At higher cost.

The Drawmer MC3.1 seems great: has everything, but the price is massive...

ha ha ha! No, it really isn't! Professional monitor controllers can cost way more than that... And have more and better facilities.

I think the MC3.1 is actually extremely good value for money.

But its Rule 1, isnt it? if you don't want to pay for eveything, you don't get everything!

Also, bear in mind that most DAWs also include elaborate monitor control facilities, and while I don't advocate using their volume controls, the channel muting/mono/ stereo difference switching facilities can still be used in combination with a simpler hardware monitor controller.

H

You're right on many points Hugh! The word expensive may have different meanings for each of us. Now I'm thinking about my needs to control a pair of speakers + one single cube...so maybe 900€ just for this could still be a little too much. Especially thinking that I may have a similar control of them remaining in the digital domain (with all the considerations we have done before, of course). Totalmix FX is actually a good tool in this regard.

Anyway the MC3.1 is a great product for its price, I agree. But too much for my simple needs. I also know that many monitor controllers are in the 2-4k range, but I think it would be an overkill for a small home studios today.

I also have the impression that with the arrival of the Nero / Drawmer cheaper models, things have changed a little in this regard in the last few years. Some years ago there was possibly nothing of comparable quality for this price (maybe something from SPL or the Drawmer 2.1), but definitely different products than the Nero. The Nero, in my opinion, seems an amazing tool for that price, it seems to do more important things than the CMC3 for the same price or even less.

And, if it's true that you can cut out one of the two speakers and listen to just one in mono, like Andy says...actually this would position the Nero very close to the MC3.1 at half price. I got why you were so positive in your review!

[zenguitar]

Sorry iasomph,

Re-reading the manual confirms that your reading is correct. My misunderstanding was because my iD14 uses the ID Mixer app and I didn't realise that the Nero doesn't have the same app.

In the iD14 (and other iD models) the system panel of the app allows you to do assign mono to both speakers for a phantom centre image or to either the left or right speaker. It will also allow you to combine mono with polarity to cancel the Mid signal and monitor the sides signal, which is a feature Hugh finds lacking in many monitor controllers.

The control section of the iD range is actually quite powerful, so it might be worth looking at some of the range to see if one of those rather than the Nero would suit your needs.

Andy

[iasomph]

Thanks for checking, Andy. I had the ID22 previously, very nice interface, indeed! But I am happy with the Babyface Pro now, on Windows it works like a rock!

Another quick question about amps and passive speakers: if we consider an amp with two channels (and two different gain rotary knobs, one for each channel) like the Samson Servo 120a or similar models, is it possible to connect a speaker to channel 1 and a different speaker to channel 2? For example an Auratone to Channel 1, and a Reftone to Channel 2? And control their volumes indipendently with the two rotary knobs of the amp? This would be bad for the speakers or for the amp since the two speakers are not the same? It could be a good way to drive both single speakers and test them, without the need of two separate amps.

Even better, if I connect each of the two amp channel inputs to different outputs of the Audient Nero controller (amp channel 1 to ALT 1 and amp channel 2 to ALT 2, and set the optimal gain reduction with the amp rotary knob for each of the two speakers, and set the monitor controller to play them always in mono), may I also decide which of the two speakers listen each time with just the touch of a button of the monitor controller, right?

Maybe this is just a crazy idea

[Dan LB]

is it possible to connect a speaker to channel 1 and a different speaker to channel 2? For example an Auratone to Channel 1, and a Reftone to Channel 2? And control their volumes indipendently with the two rotary knobs of the amp?

No problem at all. A 2 channel amp is exactly that - 2 channels. They *can* be used to power stereo speakers but they’ll be just as happy driving dual mono speakers. As long as each speaker falls within the rated impedance, then you won’t have any issues.

Some 2 channel amps can be used in ‘bridged’ mode, which basically turns the 2 channels into 1 more powerful channel - you don’t want to use this mode.

This would be bad for the speakers or for the amp since the two speakers are not the same?

Again, no problem

It could be a good way to drive both single speakers and test them, without the need of two separate amps.

Indeed

Even better, if I connect each of the two amp channel inputs to different outputs of the Audient Nero controller (amp channel 1 to ALT 1 and amp channel 2 to ALT 2, and set the optimal gain reduction with the amp rotary knob for each of the two speakers, and set the monitor controller to play them always in mono), may I also decide which of the two speakers listen each time with just the touch of a button of the monitor controller, right?

Maybe this is just a crazy idea

Nope, not a crazy idea - it's what monitor controllers are for!

The only crazy idea I can see is wanting to use two different types of grotbox when one will suffice, especially as they’re variants of the same thing

[Dan LB]

That last line is a joke btw. No offence intended

[iasomph]

That last line is a joke btw. No offence intended

No offense at all! I think you are right...but since I have to decide which of the two speakers keep and learn....would be nice to test them at the same time, without having to buy two amps for this

Thanks for your great help!

[Dan LB]

FWIW I drive a single Avantone from one side of a Quad 520f and it does the job well. My main monitors are Neumann KH120s. They are both controlled by an Audient iD22. Between the two of them I can produce mixes that translate quite well to other systems but I always check in the car too (I listen to music a lot in the car so I’m very familiar with it) and inevitably there’s something to change. The reason for this is that my room is not letting me hear what I need to (I’m currently using a minimally treated spare bedroom). Room acoustics are way more important than the difference between the Auratones and the Reftones. So I’d say just pick either one (not both) and use it, but make sure your room is sorted above all else.

[Arpangel]

Weren’t Quad 405's used a lot to drive Auratones? I know mine was, as it was fitted with two volume knobs on the back so the previous owner could adjust levels to them.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, and 303s. Amazing how often those old hi-fi Quad amps turned up in lo-fi studio applications!

[Arpangel]

Yes, and 303s. Amazing how often those old hi-fi Quad amps turned up in lo-fi studio applications!

Yes, I wish mine didn’t have the volume knobs though. I suppose it would be a simple job to bypass them, but he's drilled holes, shame.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Take the pots out and rewire as necessary, and then fill the holes with rubber bungs or screw on a blacking plate.

The blanking grommets in a kit like this can be very useful for that sort of restoration work!


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aussel-Electrical-Conductor-Assortment-Protecting/dp/B0749K9JM9/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=blanking+grommets&qid=1589972186&s=diy&sr=1-3

[Arpangel]

Take the pots out and rewire as necessary, and then fill the holes with rubber bungs or screw on a blacking plate.

The blanking grommets in a kit like this can be very useful for that sort of restoration work!


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aussel-Electrical-Conductor-Assortment-Protecting/dp/B0749K9JM9/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=blanking+grommets&qid=1589972186&s=diy&sr=1-3

Thanks Hugh, good idea, anything lock-down project underway!

[James Perrett]

Yes, and 303s. Amazing how often those old hi-fi Quad amps turned up in lo-fi studio applications!

Yes, I wish mine didn’t have the volume knobs though. I suppose it would be a simple job to bypass them, but he's drilled holes, shame.

Before you go taking the pots out remember that the standard 405 is much too sensitive for a typical mixer output so you may well need some kind of internal attenuator anyway. My 405 is fed via a home made attenuator adaptor.

Of course, if you really want to get into things you could change the circuit around the input op-amp to reduce the sensitivity but be aware that the 405 circuit is fairly cleverly designed and relies on various parts of the circuit having the right time constants for stability so any mods need to take this into account.