Midi CC learn with control surface

[kinglouis]

Hi all

I have a new icon Platform M+ control surface which feels lovely and robust. It works very nicely except for the principle reason I bought it for which was to control VI parameters. For example to control vibrato on a Spitfire cello.

When I Ctrl-click on a parameter, 'Learn Midi CC# automation' comes up. If I Ctrl-click and move a fader on the Platform M+, whilst the movement is 'seen' by Logic, it doesn't pick it up as a CC controller.

If I move a fader on my Arturia little keyboard, Logic accepts that as the new CC controller for that parameter, so I don't *think* its a Logic issue.

Any help very warmly appreciated, its been a bit of bind.

Alex

[muzines]

I'm unclear as to what you are trying to do - as there are many ways to make knobs control stuff in Logic.

Are you saying that, in Kontakt (as you mention Spitfire libraries), you are trying to use Kontakt's MIDI learn system to learn incoming MIDI CC's to Kontakt parameters?

Or something else?

[Drew Stephenson]

Is logic recognising it as a fader bank (via Mackie HUI or something) rather than a generic midi controller?

[muzines]

Basically, Logic blocks MIDI coming in from control surface assigned MIDI ports to the sequencer, for obvious reasons, which is why you can’t in plugins map Incoming MIDI to parameters - it won’t arrive.

[kinglouis]

Thanks both

Are you saying that, in Kontakt (as you mention Spitfire libraries), you are trying to use Kontakt's MIDI learn system to learn incoming MIDI CC's to Kontakt parameters?

Exactly that. So if I want to control the Vibrato and Expression at the same time as playing, I can play the keyboard with one hand, and use the faders on the control surface to move the vibrato and expression controllers with the other hand. I know this is possible via Control-click as I can happily use the faders on my Arturia keyboard to do it - but they're too small to be much use for this application, hence buying the icon.

I have unplugged the Arturia to ensure that there isn't a conflict, but I don't think there was anyway.

Is logic recognising it as a fader bank (via Mackie HUI or something) rather than a generic midi controller?

Yes, it recognises the icon as a Mackie control.

[muzines]

Exactly that.

Ok, this is using individual plugins' own MIDI learn to control their own parameters.

You can't directly use your control surface for this specific use case, because you've told Logic "this is a control surface" and so it's MIDI in/out activity is reserved for control surface use, for for general MIDI purposes. Traffic on MIDI ports to/from control surfaces is segrated from normal MIDI as in general you don't want to record this data or have it interfere with regular MIDI data for sequencing.

So you put your plug into "listen for incoming MIDI" mode, and it will never see any MIDI data generated from your control surface, as it's reserved for the control protocol only.

[kinglouis]

Thanks Desmond.

So am I right in thinking that you’re saying that I can either have the icon work as a mixing desk, controlling faders and pots, OR have it as a general midi controller, talking to VIs etc. But not both at the same time.

[The Elf]

Thanks Desmond.

So am I right in thinking that you’re saying that I can either have the icon work as a mixing desk, controlling faders and pots, OR have it as a general midi controller, talking to VIs etc. But not both at the same time.

It's a restriction of this kind of device - and one that is often overlooked.

[muzines]

So am I right in thinking that you’re saying that I can either have the icon work as a mixing desk, controlling faders and pots, OR have it as a general midi controller, talking to VIs etc. But not both at the same time.

I don't know this particular controller, but it looks like it offers a subset of MCU functionality - basically, fader banks, volume, pans, transport controls and so on, and doesn't feature any of the MCU's plugin editing features. Which means straightaway, if you want it to do more, you'll have to do some work to map in additional features on top of what it already can do - and that won't be simple.

It's a restriction of this kind of device - and one that is often overlooked.

Without diving in deep, I'm not sure what it can or can't support. In Logic, there are many ways of doing these things. What you will be fighting against is that it has a limited number of controls which are mostly essential. So you can't easily change those controls to do different things without assessing the implications on how it works in general. Plus, this kind of controller hacking is very deep stuff which isn't suitable for everyone.

Now, I have a little controller which has a great feature for my needs - in "Factory" mode, it operates as a MCU/HUI on a HUI virtual MIDI port. But then you hit "User", and it transmits on a completely different virtual MIDI port. This means I can easily and instantly flip between a standard HUI mode for the mixer, and my custom hacked MCU/C4 plugin controller mode as if they are two completely different devices. It's possible yours does something similar. If you really want to make the effort, then you can bend the controller to your will but it isn't simple to understand how the MCU/Logic is architected under the hood and rig up your own custom handling, especially with such limited controls.

My suggestion would be to use the controller for what it was designed for, rather than trying to do both, and use something else for general MIDI mapping if you really want to do that.

[Ryhad Laurentus]

Shame about the stumbling block.
Looking forward, I might recommend a simple app for your phone/tablet like Lemur/TouchOSC.
For just a couple of CC control change messages, you won't find much difficulty setting up a patch. Might save you an unnecessary compromise.
PM if I can help.

[The Elf]

I'll add MIDI designer to the iPad/iPhone options. I've made my own MIDI-based control Layouts with it, so I know it to be very capable.

[kinglouis]

What a helpful chain; I think I understand now. in layman's terms, if you buy a control surface that is essentially preprogrammed for specific integration into a programme, such as controlling Logic tracks, you need to do some pretty funky under the hood work to make it work in that programme as a general midi controller. You need to break it out of the programming for which it was designed. Sounds like that is way out of my pay grade.

This is essentially what I'm after:

https://store.monogramcc.com

which, although originally designed for photo and video editing, has freely assignable faders and pots which can be used to control multiple VI parameters.

I thank you as always. I also now have a Platform M+ for sale, barely used : )

[The Elf]

Something like an Akai LPD8 is perhaps more economical.

There are costlier models with faders. I've been eyeing the MDP232 as a stage controller.

[muzines]

What a helpful chain; I think I understand now. in layman's terms, if you buy a control surface that is essentially preprogrammed for specific integration into a programme, such as controlling Logic tracks, you need to do some pretty funky under the hood work to make it work in that programme as a general midi controller.

Basically, yes - you're buying a controller that has specific semi-intelligent behaviour because that's *better* than a generic controller, with which control is basic, limited, and must be manually programmed.

I also now have a Platform M+ for sale, barely used : )

There's probably nothing stopping you using it as a generic controller if that's what you want to do - remove it from the control surfaces setup window*, and it goes back to being a dumb device that sends MIDI. You may not be able to customise the MIDI data it sends (that depends on whether it has an editor or something which lets you do this), but you can still MIDI learn those things to whatever you want.

(If you do this, and it keeps getting re-installed when you launch Logic, I'll tell you what to do...)

[AndyN]

Hi Kinglouis,

I was looking at the Platform M+ a while back but didn't get one in the end. It does look good though. I found this video very informative. It is for Cubase but I'm sure the basic principles are the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POWngEoyJjI

[kinglouis]

Hi Andy,

Thanks! That's a useful video - so it looks like you can use it for midi cc, if you change the Control Mode. I suspect the whole thing is a bit easier to use if you buy the display that goes with it...

Great help, thank you.

Alex

[kinglouis]

(If you do this, and it keeps getting re-installed when you launch Logic, I'll tell you what to do...)

Legend. Thanks Desmond.

[kinglouis]

Another quick question please if anyone has a second:

I have made reasonable friends with the control surface icon Platform M+. It talks to Logic fairly consistently, and if it doesn't, unplugging it and rebooting normally does the trick. Have found their support to be a bit iffy but at least they reply.

Two issues remain - the faders grind ever so slightly a lot of the time. There's a handy 'how to recalibrate your faders' video which I have followed the advice on but they still do it. Its not a huge deal but it would be nice not to have it. Is this normal for flying faders?

And secondly - something that really trips it out is turning on another midi controller, ie a 32 key keyboard. It doesn't seem to mind my 88 key Yamaha but nosedives entirely if my little controller is on. Which makes me wonder if it'll deal with a new master keyboard... my old Yamaha is looking creaky and is starting to get hinky. If it decides it doesn't like the replacement 88 key controller then we're in a bit of bother. Again is this common? is there a reasonable workaround?

With many thanks as always

[Drew Stephenson]

Not directly comparable I'm afraid, but the faders on my Behringer BCF2000 don't 'grind' (I assume we're talking about a consistent micro-movement here?) at all with Reaper.

[muzines]

Two issues remain - the faders grind ever so slightly a lot of the time. There's a handy 'how to recalibrate your faders' video which I have followed the advice on but they still do it. Its not a huge deal but it would be nice not to have it. Is this normal for flying faders?

No idea about the Icon, I've not used one. The MCU is idle if the faders aren't moving.

And secondly - something that really trips it out is turning on another midi controller, ie a 32 key keyboard. It doesn't seem to mind my 88 key Yamaha but nosedives entirely if my little controller is on.

I can't really translate "nosedives" into any meaningful behaviour which would let me troubleshoot. I have 6 different controllers connected to Logic that all have some degree of control surface support, be it MCU, HUI or other functionality - not to mention a bunch of other more traditional MIDI controllers. All work fine.

If you want to troubleshoot what's going on, you'll need to be more specific about your devices, how they are connected, what MIDI ports they are on, what behaviour you see and so on.

[kinglouis]

Typically, as soon as I pop up a post, the icon and 32 key midi keyboard are now both working in perfect harmony in Logic.

The issue was, if both the keyboard and the icon were both switched on whilst Logic was running, the icon was getting all its transport controls mixed up: press play and the cursor doesn't know what to do because the icon is now flashing on play, stop and record.

I have a Motu midi express 128, only using 1 port, running the Yamaha 88 key controller into the Mac. The icon is in midi channel 9, the Arturia keyboard in at 10.

If it gets tangled up again I'll holler, being as descriptive as I can

Many thanks

[redlester]

As someone who is a bit baffled by the technicalities of MIDI CC, can anyone explain here in layman's terms (if possible) what is the difference between "MIDI CC data" and "host automation data"? I think a lot of people (including myself until recently) seem to confuse the two because I see the same questions cropping up all over the internet time and again.

Background: I was working on a track in Logic 10.5 using orchestral sample libraries, and wanted to add automation for dynamics, expression and vibrato using fader controls with TouchOSC. But as I'm a rotten keyboard player, the workflow of using faders while recording the performance is out of the question for me. I need to get the notes recorded, then go back in and add the automation.

If I play back the track and set the automation switch to "Touch" I can do this by moving the relevant control with the mouse on the plugin interface, and it gets saved as automation to the track. I'm assuming this is "host automation"?

However, if I try to do it with an external MIDI controller rather than with the mouse on the plugin interface although the effect is heard and the relevant controls on the plugin react to my fader movements, this is not saved as automation data unless I afterwards hit Capture Record. It's then saved as automation data but only as region automation, not track automation.

I only found out this after discussing on another forum, having almost given up with trying to get TouchOSC to do what I wanted, but am now using it successfully as described above - without fully understanding why it behaves this way.

[muzines]

As someone who is a bit baffled by the technicalities of MIDI CC, can anyone explain here in layman's terms (if possible) what is the difference between "MIDI CC data" and "host automation data"? I think a lot of people (including myself until recently) seem to confuse the two because I see the same questions cropping up all over the internet time and again.

Sure. Yes, this is quite a common area of confusion.

If I play back the track and set the automation switch to "Touch" I can do this by moving the relevant control with the mouse on the plugin interface, and it gets saved as automation to the track. I'm assuming this is "host automation"?

However, if I try to do it with an external MIDI controller rather than with the mouse on the plugin interface although the effect is heard and the relevant controls on the plugin react to my fader movements, this is not saved as automation data unless I afterwards hit Capture Record. It's then saved as automation data but only as region automation, not track automation.

I'll come back to these specific questions.

Consider the oldschool recording system - you'd have a multitrack tape recorder for audio (or substitute a hardware MIDI sequencer for recording MIDI), and you'd have a mixing desk.

You don't record your keyboard parts into the mixing desk, you record them into the sequencer. The sequencer is recording and playing back regular MIDI data.

When you mix, you mix on the mixing desk, and use it's automation system (completely independent of that hardware sequencer) to store the movements of it's own faders, EQ knobs etc.

Nowadays, of course, all these components are smooshed together in a DAW, so sometimes it's difficult to understand what's conceptually going on, but it broadly follows this paradigm.

More in the next post:-

[muzines]

So, in Logic, you can record MIDI into regular regions (using transport Record controls), and you can use the automation to record Logic's mixer/plugin changes (using the automation system, with modes such as read/touch/latch etc).

In general, this automation is saved to the underlying "track", not within regions. (Let's skip Region-Based Automation for now to keep this manageable!)

You're probably happy with the concept of dropping Logic into Touch mode, using the mouse to move faders etc, then going back to Read mode and having those movements play back, alongside your audio and MIDI sequences.

Ok. Where it can start to get confusing is using MIDI-based controllers. Let's say you have a fader that generates MIDI CC#7. In Logic, you can go into Record mode, just regular MIDI into a region as normal, move that fader, and it will be recorded as MIDI CC#7 data into a region.

*Or*, you can, using Controller Assignments, *learn* that MIDI CC#7 message to the volume control / fader of the selected channel. Now what happens is different. When the MIDI CC#7 data comes in, Logic sees that there is an assignment for this MIDI message. At this point, it *blocks* that MIDI CC#7 data from ever reaching the sequencer (if you Record into a region, your MIDI twiddlings on the fader will not show up there).

Instead, internally it maps those CC movements into moving the channel fader directly - just like if you were using the mouse. And now, because your MIDI control is directly manipulating Logic's channel fader, those movements can be stored using the automation system, just as above.

Are you with me so far?

[muzines]

Hmm, think I might have lost him...