Microphones For Cello

[BuaunaBall]

So my SE2200T PSU blew up and because they are very discontinued, I'm in the market for a new mic. I'm looking in the £500-£1000 ($600 - $1250) price range, and have already clocked things like the AKG C414, Neumann TLM 102/103. I can also potentially get 50% off something like an SE Gemini II through an offer SE are giving me for replacement of my 2200T, however, I've heard the tubes in those are rather noisy.

Are there any other mics that I should look into? I've used things like stereo pairs of KM184s, but can only get a single one for this price range, so I think LDC is the way to go. Are there any ribbon mics anyone's used that may be suitable for cello as well? TIA

[Sam Inglis]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

All the mics you're considering are potentially good choices (though personally I'm not a fan of the TLM103), but it might be helpful to know a bit more about your circumstances. What style of music are you playing, and what sort of room are you recording in?

[forumuser840717]

Depending on the requirements of the recording, my favourite mics for cello are (in alphabetical order):

Beyerdynamic MC740
Coles 4038
Neumann TLM170
Neumann TLM193
Neumann U89
Schoeps V4U

The ones I use most often are (in order):

V4U
MC740
4038

[BuaunaBall]

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

All the mics you're considering are potentially good choices (though personally I'm not a fan of the TLM103), but it might be helpful to know a bit more about your circumstances. What style of music are you playing, and what sort of room are you recording in?

Hi Sam,

So I play a rather wide variety of "cello". Predominantly what I do is rock/pop, and sometimes use it to fill out the sound of what I'm recording through my loop pedal into Logic. I also do session stuff from time to time, which is usually more classical/pad strings type stuff. I have access to things like U87, KM184, C414 XLS at university, so this is basically my personal mic that'll get me by at home in case, say, a pandemic cuts me off from those particular mics.

[Sam Inglis]

The general rule of thumb would be to consider an LDC if you want a slightly "larger than life" sound or an SDC if you want something that is "accurate", although there are plenty of exceptions to both rules.

As far as current production LDCs go, I would certainly look at the TLM102, and also the Austrian Audio OC18. For SDCs I think the MBHO line offers good value, and you might also consider the Hebden Sound mics which are derived from the old Calrec designs. There are also a huge number of other strong contenders from the likes of sE, Rode, etc.

Ribbon mics can sound wonderful on string instruments but some may be too dark or thick-sounding for pop and rock. It's a role where I'd like to try a Beyer M160, which is quite bright for a ribbon but still smooth, but I haven't had the chance.

[BuaunaBall]

Depending on the requirements of the recording, my favourite mics for cello are (in alphabetical order):

Beyerdynamic MC740
Coles 4038
Neumann TLM170
Neumann TLM193
Neumann U89
Schoeps V4U

The Coles 4038 actually sounds incredible on the examples I've just searched! I'm actually in love with that sound! My only worry is that the low end response seems a little thin, whereas I need to be sure I can capture all of the low end of my cello. Can you give any more details of your experience with it please?

[BuaunaBall]

The general rule of thumb would be to consider an LDC if you want a slightly "larger than life" sound or an SDC if you want something that is "accurate", although there are plenty of exceptions to both rules.

As far as current production LDCs go, I would certainly look at the TLM102, and also the Austrian Audio OC18. For SDCs I think the MBHO line offers good value, and you might also consider the Hebden Sound mics which are derived from the old Calrec designs. There are also a huge number of other strong contenders from the likes of sE, Rode, etc.

Ribbon mics can sound wonderful on string instruments but some may be too dark or thick-sounding for pop and rock. It's a role where I'd like to try a Beyer M160, which is quite bright for a ribbon but still smooth, but I haven't had the chance.

I think I will most likely go for an LDC as I need to have that foundation of a "larger than life" sound, and then add a SDC at a later date. The Austrian Audio mics seem to be picking up recommendations left right and centre for pretty much a brand new player in the game, so I will definitely look into those a lot more!

Somehow, I feel like Rode don't quite live up to the hype. They sound okay imo, but the ones I've had access to were so problematic, and half the time they were back at Rode being fixed or replaced. And I think you're right on the ribbon front. The M160 definitely sounds brighter, but still a bit dark for me. The definitely have their applications for strings, but couldn't be my only mic.

[Arpangel]

I’ve used my Sennheiser MKH30/40 combo on cello a few times, yes, an LDC will give you a different sound, but the MKH's are very flat, and have good bass extension, an MKH40 is above your budget, but you’ll definitely appreciate what it can do.
The cello as we know is especially, very rich in certain harmonics, and the Sennheisers won’t restrict that in any way, strings sound very open and natural with them.
If it’s a slightly enhanced, slightly "fuller" sound you’re after, then I guess go for an LDC, it may be better for the styles of music you mention.

[Drew Stephenson]

How bright is your cello? When we did some cello recording a few years ago we found a nice set-up for my cello using a stereo LDC.
But when we got a proper cellist involved her instrument sounded completely different and we switched to a ribbon.

[Aled Hughes]

Ribbon mics can sound wonderful on string instruments but some may be too dark or thick-sounding for pop and rock. It's a role where I'd like to try a Beyer M160, which is quite bright for a ribbon but still smooth, but I haven't had the chance.

I used an M160 on cello for an album last year and was very happy with it.

Here are a couple of examples if you're interested (though I can't remember how much of the M160 is in the mix in relation to the main pair - Line Audio OM1 if memory serves)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZpLKMFOGCQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FgD6wEs5_w

I have an AEA R84 on the way - I'm looking forward to trying that on a variety of stringed instruments!

Aled

[BuaunaBall]

How bright is your cello? When we did some cello recording a few years ago we found a nice set-up for my cello using a stereo LDC.
But when we got a proper cellist involved her instrument sounded completely different and we switched to a ribbon.

My cello is pretty much straight down the middle. It's not overly bright, yet still has a sharp but full tone. The SE2200T I was using however, was too bright for my taste, but was what I could afford at the time (second hand), so I'm looking for something with a full tone, but controlled high ends.

[BuaunaBall]

I used an M160 on cello for an album last year and was very happy with it.

Here are a couple of examples if you're interested (though I can't remember how much of the M160 is in the mix in relation to the main pair - Line Audio OM1 if memory serves)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZpLKMFOGCQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FgD6wEs5_w

I have an AEA R84 on the way - I'm looking forward to trying that on a variety of stringed instruments!

Aled

I looked into the M160, and whilst it is slightly brighter than most ribbons, it still seems a little dark for the majority of my applications. I was also considering pushing my budget a bit for the R84!! Though in my non soundproof room, I'm using a vocal reflection filter to help isolate the mic, so the bidirectional pattern would be rather wasted.

[John Willett]

I have just had a cellist coming to me for microphones for a cello - after trying several by different manufacturers he decided on the Gefell UMT 70S (the MT 71S is the same but cardioid only and chesper).

Now, as I distribute Gefell in the UK, I will not say more - other than a cellist considers this a good mic. for the cello and it ought to be on the list of microphones you try.

But, what you buy you should try for yourself first - and most good mic. dealers / distributors should be able to arrange a loan for you.

[Aled Hughes]

Though in my non soundproof room, I'm using a vocal reflection filter to help isolate the mic, so the bidirectional pattern would be rather wasted.

You wouldn’t be ‘wasting’ the pattern. You just need to be aware of the sensitive rear lobe, and that includes closing it off to reflections as you mentioned, which is perfectly OK to do.

However, seeing as you’re suggesting your room is not treated, it would be FAR better to address that first, before looking at microphones.

[resistorman]

I’ve used clip ons for rock. The AT pro35 was surprisingly good. You can clip it right on to the bridge and find the best spot and not worry about movement. DPA make some great mics like this for considerably more money, but you get what you pay for.

[zenguitar]

I looked into the M160, and whilst it is slightly brighter than most ribbons, it still seems a little dark for the majority of my applications.

Is that based on using an M160, or inferred from reading reviews/retailer descriptions?

If you have tried one and it doesn't work for your needs, that's fine and I fully respect your decision. But if you are discounting the M160 solely on the basis of reviews you might be missing out, especially when someone with the experience of Ramirez has reported good results using one on cello recordings.

Remember, you don't have to commit yourself to buying one. The M160 has been a studio staple for over half a century and it would cost very little to hire one for a weekend and make some test recordings to hear for yourself.

Andy

[BuaunaBall]

Though in my non soundproof room, I'm using a vocal reflection filter to help isolate the mic, so the bidirectional pattern would be rather wasted.

You wouldn’t be ‘wasting’ the pattern. You just need to be aware of the sensitive rear lobe, and that includes closing it off to reflections as you mentioned, which is perfectly OK to do.

However, seeing as you’re suggesting your room is not treated, it would be FAR better to address that first, before looking at microphones.

Thing is, I already have projects going that need to be finished, and work for clients that needs to be done which was halted by my old mic exploding. The main issue with the room itself is one of the window handles broke, so I have basically screwed clamps to it which hold it closed to an extent, but is nowhere near as sound proof as it was before. Due to the age of the house, the only way to fix that would be a new window, so at the moment, just getting a mic is the priority.

[BuaunaBall]

Going in a completely different direction here; Has anybody use the Earthworks QTC40? I've been looking into them and am incredibly drawn to them for their DEAD FLAT freq response! Also the fact that they capture 3Hz - 40KHz, meaning it captures absolutely every harmonic resonance coming from the cello too. I've seen Patrick Laird of Brooklyn Duo uses the QTC40 on his cello, though they are endorsed by Earthworks so can't be completely unbiased. Any thoughts? There really isn't a whole lot on Earthworks QTC40s out there, however it is the one SDC that's really pulling me away from getting an LDC.

[Aled Hughes]

Though in my non soundproof room, I'm using a vocal reflection filter to help isolate the mic, so the bidirectional pattern would be rather wasted.

You wouldn’t be ‘wasting’ the pattern. You just need to be aware of the sensitive rear lobe, and that includes closing it off to reflections as you mentioned, which is perfectly OK to do.

However, seeing as you’re suggesting your room is not treated, it would be FAR better to address that first, before looking at microphones.

Thing is, I already have projects going that need to be finished, and work for clients that needs to be done which was halted by my old mic exploding. The main issue with the room itself is one of the window handles broke, so I have basically screwed clamps to it which hold it closed to an extent, but is nowhere near as sound proof as it was before. Due to the age of the house, the only way to fix that would be a new window, so at the moment, just getting a mic is the priority.

It’s important to understand that there is a difference between acoustic treatment and soundproofing.

Acoustic treatment makes your room sound better, and it’s relatively simple to make basic improvements.

Soundproofing is stopping sound from entering and leaving the room, which is a different problem, and potentially very difficult and expensive to sort.

[BuaunaBall]

Though in my non soundproof room, I'm using a vocal reflection filter to help isolate the mic, so the bidirectional pattern would be rather wasted.

You wouldn’t be ‘wasting’ the pattern. You just need to be aware of the sensitive rear lobe, and that includes closing it off to reflections as you mentioned, which is perfectly OK to do.

However, seeing as you’re suggesting your room is not treated, it would be FAR better to address that first, before looking at microphones.

Thing is, I already have projects going that need to be finished, and work for clients that needs to be done which was halted by my old mic exploding. The main issue with the room itself is one of the window handles broke, so I have basically screwed clamps to it which hold it closed to an extent, but is nowhere near as sound proof as it was before. Due to the age of the house, the only way to fix that would be a new window, so at the moment, just getting a mic is the priority.

It’s important to understand that there is a difference between acoustic treatment and soundproofing.

Acoustic treatment makes your room sound better, and it’s relatively simple to make basic improvements.

Soundproofing is stopping sound from entering and leaving the room, which is a different problem, and potentially very difficult and expensive to sort.

I do understand that, and at the moment hang things like blankets over doors and windows to minimise bad reflections, as well as using an SE Space Design reflection filter to make my room sound as good as possible. However, there is a major soundproofing issue which I’m just having to deal with atm, which is a pain if exterior sounds come through and are captured by the mic

[forumuser840717]

If avoiding external noise or a dud room is a big issue for you, have you tried something like a DPA 4088 with a cello mount?

I know a session cellist doing a lot of work in everything from core classical repertoire to touring with rock bands playing in some major venues and she carries a 4088 with her for those days when she wants something that she knows will work in a difficult space and help the sound crew get the sound she wants with the minimum fuss. That said, in the studio, she usually uses a U89, Beyer MC740 or 4038 - depending on what sound she needs.

One fairly famous cello soloist I used to record often, initially insisted on a C414B-ULS or, at a push, one of the original TLM170s, but after many years we moved him off the 414 to an MC740 by showing him that it produced the sound he wanted without needing a shedload of EQ. (The first choice for one particular recording was actually a Brauner VM1 but the TV crew vetoed it on the grounds that it's rather large and something of a visual statement that the director didn't like dominating his shots, let alone the difficulty of hiding the power supply on stage so we switched back to the MC740.) Just before he retired we started using the V4U, which he picked in a blind AB test against the MC740, and that became his preferred mic for our last few recordings with him.

And to respond to your earlier question, if the 4038 gives you most of what you want but you're worried about a lack of LF, try borrowing or hiring one to try it out for yourself. As you're no doubt aware, the quite complex frequency radiation pattern for a cello means that moving a mic by a few inches can radically change what it's 'hearing', especially in the HF-LF balance so I think it might be worth trying to work that a bit with whatever mic you try. I've certainly never found a 4038 lacking in LF extension for a cello pickup; it can lack some extreme HF response but the lack of spurious resonances from the ribbon produces a lovely clarity without the tendancy to go 'fizzy' which can aflict even top quality capacitor mics.

To cloud the water a bit more, some other mics with which I've had good results on cellos, which might be worth trying but are less common and might be hard to find so I didn't bother mentioning them before but here goes: Pearl rectangular capsule models like the ELM A (switchable), ELM B (fig-8), ELM C (cardioid), CC22 (cardioid) or TL44 (switchable) or the Milab DC196 (switchable) or DC96 (cardioid). Then there's the more unusual Ehrlund EHR-M that I think Hugh reviewed in SOS at some point, and which has a triangular diaphragm. I've only used it a couple of times when wortking in Sweden but it was a really interesting mic with some very likeable sonic qualities on low strings. I also rather like the AEA A440 and A840 on cello but they're both huge and, particularly the A440, quite expensive and heavy. They also need really good shock mounting to avoid picking up stand borne vibrations - so really don't respond well to sitting on an un-shock-mounted stand sited within a few feet of a cello spike on a resonant floor!

[Dan LB]

One fairly famous cello soloist I used to record often, initially insisted on a C414B-ULS or, at a push, one of the original TLM170s, but after many years we moved him off the 414 to an MC740 by showing him that it produced the sound he wanted without needing a shedload of EQ. (The first choice for one particular recording was actually a Brauner VM1 but the TV crew vetoed it on the grounds that it's rather large and something of a visual statement that the director didn't like dominating his shots, let alone the difficulty of hiding the power supply on stage so we switched back to the MC740.) Just before he retired we started using the V4U, which he picked in a blind AB test against the MC740, and that became his preferred mic for our last few recordings with him.

I think you’re describing the same guy I’ve worked with on a few occasions too. He always asked for the C414B-ULS. Nothing else would do. He came over with his wife once - she didn’t really care what we used on her cello, nor did he! In fairness though, she wasn’t playing a Strad

And just as a point of clarity, I presume you mean the DPA 4099. The 4088 is a headset mic.

[forumuser840717]

I think you’re describing the same guy I’ve worked with on a few occasions too. He always asked for the C414B-ULS. Nothing else would do. He came over with his wife once - she didn’t really care what we used on her cello, nor did he! In fairness though, she wasn’t playing a Strad

That'll be him He was always picky about how he sounded but always in such a polite and personable way and, unlike a lot of soloists, cared and was interested in what we were doing to deliver our side of his recorded sound. Always a pleasure to work with.

And just as a point of clarity, I presume you mean the DPA 4099. The 4088 is a headset mic.

D'oh! Yep 4099's the lad. Thanks for picking that up. That'll teach me to read what I actually typed not what I thought I'd typed!

[Dan LB]

......cared and was interested in what we were doing to deliver our side of his recorded sound.

Absolutely. I always noticed that about him in particular.

Always a pleasure to work with.

100%! Very pleasant

[rggillespie]

Not exactly cello related but I've found the Austrian audio OC818 to be wonderful with my acoustic guitar. Its extremely versatile and I had compared it against a new AKG 414 xls and thought it was better by some distance. Very clear, full and natural sounding to my ear, and if bought new, you would have the option to return for a refund if it didn't work for you. Prior to getting it, I had found using both a valve mic or a ribbon for acoustic guitar to get the required level I had to raise the mic input and this brought other unwanted noise issues. Perhaps not relevant to the cello as maybe its that much louder to start with, but worth pointing out.