Long cable runs, multi-core or single cables?

[Arpangel]

I want to run some long cable to some monitors at the bottom of our garden, I’m torn between buying multi core and a stage box, or just running individual cables, I can make these leads myself.
I’m thinking the cheapest way would be to use individual balanced cables going to four monitors, the neater more convenient solution is to use 4 channel multi-core cable with an XLR box on the end, the run is quite long about 50 metres, I’d still have to buy two 100 metre drums of balanced cable, which is around £50 per drum, compared to a stage box and multi-core at around £150 plus the stage boxes.

[Mike Stranks]

Of course, there's always this option...

https://www.vtx.uk/product.aspx?id=161

[Folderol]

How permanent is this going to be?
If it's just temporary I'd go for singles - quick, simple and easily reusable. For permanent I'd use multicore and run it along a fence (if there is one).

[Mike Stranks]

... but however you do it, beware of rodents!

That would suggest a multicore or Cat5 (see above) inside a protective layer - eg hosepipe - and buried if this is needed long-term would be best.

Or fastened off the ground to a fence...

[Arpangel]

Thanks folks, it’s only going to be temporary, that’s why I want to spend as little money as possible, I think you’re right Folderol, and the cables will come in handy if I have to record in any churches!
I’ve found some cheap balanced cable that will do I think at £30 a drum from Cricklewood Electronics.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Good call Mike -- I was going to suggest the same thing: Use external grade Cat 5e/6 cable between break out boxes. Smaller, lighter, cheaper. You'd have to be careful about breakout box location to keep the weather out, of course...

If you want to stick with the old school approach, a multicore would be neater, but actually separate cables would probably be a lot easier and a lot more more weatherproof! Whatever you use, make sure it's external grade as ultraviolet light breaks down the plasticisers in the sheaths of standard cables. If the cables are only going to be outdoors for a few days it won't matter, but if you're talking weeks or months then it really does matter!

Personally, I'd run four separate (external grade) balanced cables, each one direct all the way to each speaker. That avoids all the expense and inconvenience of a breakout box, as well as the problems of keeping a breakout box weathertight.

Use Neutrik 'TOP' XLR connectors which are weatherproof to IP65. They're over a tenner each, but well worth it for long-term garden use!

https://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nc3mx-t ... dp/AV28408

Ideally, I'd run the cables down a length of 32mm standard waste pipe buried in the garden, along the fence line or lawn edge etc... and then use expanding braid to bundle the four cables together into a pseudo multicore where they become visible which would look a lot neater. (And remember to leave a pull-through string along the pipe for future upgrades!)

[Arpangel]

Good call Mike -- I as going to suggest the same thing: Use external grade Cat 5e/6 cable between break out boxes. Smaller, lighter, cheaper. You'd have to be careful about breakout box location to keep the weather, of course...

If you want to stick with the old school approach, a multicore would be neater, but actually separate cables would probably be easier and more weatherproof!

Personally, I'd run four separate (external grade) balanced cables, one direct all the way to each speaker. That avoids all the expense, inconvenience and problems of keeping a breakout box weathertight. Use Neutrik 'TOP' XLR connectors which are weatherproof to IP65. They're over a tenner each, but well worth it for long-term garden use!

https://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nc3mx-t ... dp/AV28408

Ideally, I'd run the cables down a length of 32mm standard waste pipe buried in the garden and then use expanding braid to bundle the four cables together into a pseudo multicore where they become visible which would look a lot neater. (And remember to leave a pull-through string along the pipe for future upgrades!)

Thanks Hugh, but I’m only going to using this on sunny days, and packing it up afterwards, so the single cables should be fine, and can be used for other things.

[Mike Stranks]

I have several multicores and have made a few single cable drums with a central socket. They're much easier to deploy and pack-up than coiled cables - even using the over/under technique.

However, when I was feeling lazy I bought one of these:

https://www.terralec.co.uk/audio_leads/cobra_microphone_snake_lead_on_reel_50m_1_input/29962_p.html

which seems pretty robust and gives (gave!) me 50m when I needed it for long outdoor runs.

(Also comes in a two, balanced cable in one sheath config...)

[Sam Spoons]

I assume these are active monitors (is this to do with the railway*?). If so a couple of TRS or XLR breakout boxes hardwired onto some shielded Cat6 would be the cheapest way and, at line level should work just fine.

* Do you know Chris Mackenzie? His bro, Andy, is a good (guitar playing) mate of mine?

[Hugh Robjohns]

However, when I was feeling lazy I bought one of these:

https://www.terralec.co.uk/audio_leads/cobra_microphone_snake_lead_on_reel_50m_1_input/29962_p.html

Looks good value, and I can appreciate the convenience...

But why two female sockets on the reel? I can't figure what possible use that would have at all...

If it was one male and one female I could get it -- a parallel split feed... Or if the cable plug was a female and it was two male XLRs on the reel that would make sense as a splitter as well...

But two females on the reel implies combining two output signals into a single feed and that -- as I'm sure we all know very well -- is a definite no-no!

What am I missing, please?

[The Elf]

Of course, there's always this option...

https://www.vtx.uk/product.aspx?id=161

That would be ideal for my mobile rig, where I seem to get through multicores like fresh socks!

It's one of those companies that seems shy of giving us any prices. Any idea of the cost for that pair of boxes?

[Hugh Robjohns]

The same system with a different badge sells in the US for around $180

https://www.markertek.com/product/ets-pa202f/ets-pa202f-instasnake-adapter-4-fxlr-to-rj45-jack-all-pins

...And similar designs go for around £120 -- not including the cat5 cable.

https://shop.cie-group.com/shop/audio-visual_1/audio-system-tools_9/audio-system-problem-solvers_1003/sonet-cat5-audio-distribution-system-4in/4out_918.php

http://soundtools.com/audio-over-cat5-systems-page.html

https://www.ratsoundsales.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=soundtools-catsnake

The Radial Catapult and Capatpult-Mini solutions are double and treble that, of course, but they are capable of withstanding nuclear holocausts!

htm]https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engineering_catapult_tx4.[url]htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engine ... lt_rx4.htm[/url]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engineering_catapult_mini_tx.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/radial_engineering_catapult_mini_rx.htm?

But Thomann does a much cheaper version for just £20 a box!!!

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_cat_snake_3mb.htm

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_cat_snake_3fc.htm

[Mike Stranks]

However, when I was feeling lazy I bought one of these:

https://www.terralec.co.uk/audio_leads/cobra_microphone_snake_lead_on_reel_50m_1_input/29962_p.html

Looks good value, and I can appreciate the convenience...

But why two female sockets on the reel? I can't figure what possible use that would have at all...

If it was one male and one female I could get it -- a parallel split feed... Or if the cable plug was a female and it was two male XLRs on the reel that would make sense as a splitter as well...

But two females on the reel implies combining two output signals into a single feed and that -- as I'm sure we all know very well -- is a definite no-no!

What am I missing, please?

I have no idea!

It's always struck me as bizarre in the extreme and I've sometimes pondered on possible applications... without success! But 50m of decent cable on a drum with a centre socket - or two! - for that money was almost as cost effective as buying the bits and doing it myself. My other two similar cable reels I made myself from drums and cable I already had.

... and good spot on the Thomann versions of the Cat5/6 links... I shall ponder as I'm about to start 'moving on' most of my remaining live-sound gear. But I don't want to box m'self in too much... one never knows when the 'call' will come!

[shufflebeat]

I've seen Dave Rat's discussion on the subject of Cat5 analogue some time ago and it seemed like a robust way to go from scratch but at the time prohibitively expensive to change an existing system.

At these prices, assuming a merchantable level of reliability, it makes more sense. Could I relay on a <100ft cable to run both line and mic levels both ways (with some swapping of XLRs) without major issues?

[Mike Stranks]

I've seen Dave Rat's discussion on the subject of Cat5 analogue some time ago and it seemed like a robust way to go from scratch but at the time prohibitively expensive to change an existing system.

At these prices, assuming a merchantable level of reliability, it makes more sense. Could I relay on a <100ft cable to run both line and mic levels both ways (with some swapping of XLRs) without major issues?

I think so, as long as the Cat 5/6 is properly screened.

My multicores are by no means expensive ones, but when I was on the road I was regularly running mic signals one way and four lines (L&R FoH and two monitor sends) at line-level back to the stage. All balanced of course and never any problems.

Doubtless the cognoscenti will be along shortly...

[Hugh Robjohns]

Personally, I'd be wary of running mic and line along the same Cat-x cable for fears of crosstalk... but I know people that have quite successfully and without complaint.

Of course, you would need screened UTP (or STP) Cat-x cable (and suitable RJ45 connectors) to provide a return path for phantom power in a mic connecting application.

[The Elf]

Thanks for this Mike and allies. Don't know why I haven't come across these boxes before!

With some of the church recordings I've done I can end up in backroom down a corridor half a mile from the stage!

[Hugh Robjohns]

That's the joy of the forum hive-mind!

[James Perrett]

At these prices, assuming a merchantable level of reliability, it makes more sense. Could I relay on a <100ft cable to run both line and mic levels both ways (with some swapping of XLRs) without major issues?

While I've not done the test with network cables, I tested a mix of mic and line signals when I built my first multicore using a 10m length of 25 core overall screened cable. At full gain on the MM mixer I could just hear a very trebly representation of the line level signal on the mic channels. It was usable at typical mic gain levels but I was worried about high frequency feedback if I was sending returns up the same cable so I used separate cables for the returns.

Cat5 and similar network cables are made to a fairly tight spec and balanced inputs ought to be better nowadays so you may get away with sends and returns on the same cable but I'd prefer to keep them separate.

[Sam Spoons]

Not sure but since a Cat-xx cable only carries 4 pairs would there be many situations where you'd manage with a single one, two mics, mono FOH and one monitor feed maybe? If you did have that it would probably be a small venue so a short run so you'd likely get away with it.

I'm thinking about using it for two mics/DIs and two headphone feeds to behind the keyboards so about 4 metres. I'm fairly sure that would work with Cat5 but might still run the mics on FST just to be sure.

[ef37a]

There will definitely be crosstalk between pairs using CATx cable though not a serious amount depending on what you do.

Some crude tests I did a few years ago on cabling around my house showed that a 0dBu signal would produce about -50dB in another pair. Audible in some situations but prbably not a problem in most? Not mixing line levels and mic levels would avoid virtually any crosstalk anyway.

Dave.

[Arpangel]

I assume these are active monitors (is this to do with the railway*?). If so a couple of TRS or XLR breakout boxes hardwired onto some shielded Cat6 would be the cheapest way and, at line level should work just fine.

* Do you know Chris Mackenzie? His bro, Andy, is a good (guitar playing) mate of mine?

It’s nothing to do with the railway, I’m using this as a distant PA, I’m going to put the monitors at the bottom of the garden, and put mic’s back at the house, and record the results, it sounds amazing, lots of natural echoes and reverb coming from the trees and garden walls, it’s quite magical.
Chris Mackenzie?????

[Sam Spoons]

Cool.

Chris builds garden railway rolling stock in Timperly, South Manchester.

[Arpangel]

Cool.

Chris builds garden railway rolling stock in Timperly, South Manchester.

Does he do it professionally?
I’m running G Scale, but it’s very limiting, I’m thinking of re-building in O Gauge.

[Sam Spoons]

I think it's a hobby he gets paid for but not sure. He's a nice guy, (only met him once mind you) I can try to get his number or email if you like, I'm sure he'd be happy to chat.