Could use another pair of ears on this mix (prog rock content)

[Ben Asaro]

Hi everyone,

I've begun production on the next album for my prog rock project, AS FOLLOWS. As it's essentially a one man + musicans-for-hire type of situation, I would love another pair of ears (or more) on the current state of the mix. I think I'm pretty happy with it, but if anyone has the endurance to make it through all 13+ minutes and you hear something untoward, I would love to know about it!

You can access the audio here, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rdhTdO ... sp=sharing

Lyrics below:
THROUGH DARKNESS INTO LIGHT

a. DAWN BATTLE
Mist on the field
In the coming dawn
Our enemy revealed
Guide my hand this day
Rising up with hearts of steel

Forest deep
Lay down and sleep
Into deep slumbers I’m falling
Wake thee from thy dream

Hear her sing, sweet Tinuviel
Casting a spell over my heart
Elf-King daughter’s song

b. REALMS OF TWILIGHT
Realm of Sauron/Evil power/Torturing the Elves
Twisted treason/Evil reason/Prey upon his fear

Dark illusion/Dark conclusion/Wife back from the dead
Son of Morgoth/Sets in motion/Tragedy for all the Elves
Evil plans are sown in the darkness

In his leisure/Take the treasure/From the Iron Crown
Stone upon his brow is falling/Rolling on the ground
Iron tower/In his power/Shadow on the land

Hunt Carcharoth/With my brothers/Battle ended, take my hand
Evil plans are sown in the darkness

c. INTO THE LIGHT
Stone within his hand
Part from mortal land
See his spirit leaving
From his final stand

He enters a Realm of Light
Crying aloud for him
She lives on!

Hound of Valinor
Faithful to the end
Speaking out a third time
Listen now, my friends

He enters the Realm of Light
Valinor calls to him
She lives on!

Simaril restored
Beren gains her hand
Magic song returned
Sounds out across the land

They enter a Realm of Light
Crying aloud for him
She lives on!

With the passing years
Slowly does he age
Then one day he breathes his last upon this stage

He enters the Realm of Light
Crying aloud for him
She lives on!

[CS70]

Just went thru it the whole 13m with the LCD-X since it's evening while reading a newspaper on the internet.

First a totally subjective but unbiased opinion on the music - which is not my normal cup of tea at all: it rocks! Starts a bit subdued and I was like "ok, hope it's not 13 mins of noodling", the first sung track is better, and then it truly becomes epic. Loved it. The last half is awesome, liked the dynamic in the arrangement and the vocal treatment (perhaps the only thing I felt lacking in the first song). And I am NOT a prog lover.

Hats off.

Now back to the mix. It's a good mix: you can hear everything, the changes are well done (the various gear changes work well), pannings are cool and the balances are different from song to song but not in a way that distracts from the content.

Sound-wise, it sounds a bit late 70s. The mix is "thick", it does not have that pristine clarity and separation and surgical level precision on vocals that you have in modern mixes (but it's not a modern genre, in a way). Note: it is not a criticism at all: it really fits the genre and the era, to me. Bass was a little light in the can but again it fits the sound, it's way before the thundering basses which we hear nowadays.

I guess it's not mastered? If so, and you want to preserve the character, it's important to tell the mastering engineer.

Really lovely music. I'm gonna actually listen to it again.

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks much for the quick response! I'm very glad that you enjoyed the song even though it's not to your usual taste! I really try to make prog accessible and melodic, though I do tend to have long-ass noodle session as well.

You are correct, this is not mastered yet.

My approach is decidedly old-school, I suppose, and I don't think I could make it sound 'modern' if I tried, I just don't think my ears are keyed into that sound at all -- you are right, I think, in your observation that most prog tends to look backwards instead of forwards when it comes to sonic aesthetics; I mean, let's face it, we're still venerating bands like Yes, Genesis, and Jethro Tull as the paragons of prog some 40 years later ...

Thanks for your insights on the mix, as well! I hope the song holds up to your second listen!!

[Drew Stephenson]

Just having a listen on my non-studio headphones on my laptop - so definitely more of a consumer environment!
Thoughts as I listen:
Opening couple of minutes or so the guitar could come down for me, it's a bit overpowering.
When the drums kick in at about 6 minutes, I think they could have a bit more oomph before dropping back to their current level when the guitars come in.
I'm more of an americana/singer-songwriter type myself and I know the balance tends to be different in rock, but there are places where I'd like the lyrics to come through a bit stronger, e.g. around 9:30. Might just need a bit of fader riding to bring up the ends of some of the words.

I'm never that good at judging reverb on headphones, but to me the overall mix sounds a bit dry. For example at about 4:39 there's a fractional pause in the guitar and it sounds very dead, compared to, say, the arpeggios in this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkaR-r9ZfIY (though there's clearly a lot of drone work filling in the gaps there).*
I get that feeling again around the 12 minute mark as well, when the arrangement strips down a bit.

For 13 minutes that goes very quickly! I'd completely agree with CS70 that it sounds very much a production of the era, the section around 8 minutes gave me a really strong Floyd vibe.
Going to be a bit busy this weekend but will try and give it a proper listen in the studio.

* P.S. that version of this song appears to have been uploaded a bit hot. My copy isn't that distorted!

[Sam Spoons]

I listened to the first 30 secs* then had to stop, I will listen to the whole thing on my studio monitors tomorrow at some point, I love prog and was/am a huge fan of Yes, JT and Genisis so I know exactly where you are coming from.

* Which I liked......

[Ben Asaro]

blinddrew, thanks so much for the detailed analysis! I shall give the sections you mentioned a critical listen and see if I can grok what you're hearing. As I'm sure you are aware, at one point you can just get deaf to your own song at this point (after demo/recording/reamping/editing/balancing/mixing) where something that jumps out to a casual listener may not even be noticeable to me!

Re: the reverb level, I found it to be a bit too wet, and dialed it back, so maybe there's a happy mid-point where it's wet enough for some reverb tail, but not super wet. You are totally right, though -- I prefer a very dry sounding mix, personally.

[Ben Asaro]

I listened to the first 30 secs* then had to stop, I will listen to the whole thing on my studio monitors tomorrow at some point, I love prog and was/am a huge fan of Yes, JT and Genisis so I know exactly where you are coming from.

* Which I liked......

Thanks, really looking forward to your thoughts! Having released three full length AF albums, I have grown accustomed to getting flamed by prog fans lol. (Prog Archives categorizes my music as 'crossover' prog; ie, it's prog rock not prog rock, if you take my meaning)

[Ben Asaro]

J
For 13 minutes that goes very quickly! I'd completely agree with CS70 that it sounds very much a production of the era, the section around 8 minutes gave me a really strong Floyd vibe.
Going to be a bit busy this weekend but will try and give it a proper listen in the studio.

Almost forgot to address this -- thanks very much for the kind words! Hopefully this will pass muster in the studio, and if not, I'm all ears!

[Sam Spoons]

I listened to the first 30 secs* then had to stop, I will listen to the whole thing on my studio monitors tomorrow at some point, I love prog and was/am a huge fan of Yes, JT and Genisis so I know exactly where you are coming from.

* Which I liked......

Thanks, really looking forward to your thoughts! Having released three full length AF albums, I have grown accustomed to getting flamed by prog fans lol. (Prog Archives categorizes my music as 'crossover' prog; ie, it's prog rock not prog rock, if you take my meaning)

Which just goes to show how useful (i.e. not useful) such categories are. At the end of the day it's just music, either you like it or you don't like it.

[Ben Asaro]

I listened to the first 30 secs* then had to stop, I will listen to the whole thing on my studio monitors tomorrow at some point, I love prog and was/am a huge fan of Yes, JT and Genisis so I know exactly where you are coming from.

* Which I liked......

Thanks, really looking forward to your thoughts! Having released three full length AF albums, I have grown accustomed to getting flamed by prog fans lol. (Prog Archives categorizes my music as 'crossover' prog; ie, it's prog rock not prog rock, if you take my meaning)

Which just goes to show how useful (i.e. not useful) such categories are. At the end of the day it's just music, either you like it or you don't like it.

Oh, I totally agree, categories are daft lol.

However, getting into the Archives is good for record sales, so ... lol

You would not believe the debate that raged between the admins as to what sub-slice of a sub-slice my music belongs in lol.

[Eddy Deegan]

I agree with Blinddrew's thought about the intro guitar being a little high relative to everything else but apart from that, having listened through the whole thing I thought it sounded very good.

Great music as usual Ben, there's a huge amount to enjoy in there!

[innerchord]

Seeing as you described this as Prog, I just had to have a listen.

Can you clarify what state you feel this mix is at? Is it a rough demo, or a final mix which you're about to release?
There are some pretty huge problems in some frequency areas, hence it wouldn't be fair to comment until I know the track's current status.

[CS70]

Thanks much for the quick response! I'm very glad that you enjoyed the song

It is one song?

[Ben Asaro]

I agree with Blinddrew's thought about the intro guitar being a little high relative to everything else but apart from that, having listened through the whole thing I thought it sounded very good.

Great music as usual Ben, there's a huge amount to enjoy in there!

Okay, I'm going to have to give that intro guitar a look into, thanks!

Thanks for the kind words re: the music as well, appreciate it!

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks much for the quick response! I'm very glad that you enjoyed the song

It is one song?

lol yes!

[Ben Asaro]

Seeing as you described this as Prog, I just had to have a listen.

Can you clarify what state you feel this mix is at? Is it a rough demo, or a final mix which you're about to release?
There are some pretty huge problems in some frequency areas, hence it wouldn't be fair to comment until I know the track's current status.

Fire away, man!

[Sam Spoons]

Thanks much for the quick response! I'm very glad that you enjoyed the song

It is one song?

Whaddaya mean "it's one song".... it's only 13 minutes long, that's lightweight stuff to us prog and underground fans.....

Shine On You Crazy Diamond is 26" 14'* but Jethro Tull probably take the Prog crown with Thick As A Brick at 43' 46"** (The only song I know where the live version is a shortened version of the studio track).

* The first chord change doesn't come until 2" 26" and the vocal doesn't start until 8' 44"

** Tubular Bells is a few minutes longer at 49" 16" but I'm not sure if it's Prog or something else.

[The Elf]

Nice Yes-ish feel to this. Like that! Here are my notes as I was listening...

==

Typing as I listen...

It's tonally mid-heavy and stereo narrow. Don't be afraid of the pan knob!

Snare is a bit 'knocky', making it sound very forward for the mix.

I would replace that early brass with something more 'synthy' - it sounds a tad 'home keyboard' at the moment.

It's all a bit dry - more delay/reverb would give it a more epic feel. This is something I'm noticing throughout.

The opening vocal is too dry.

Watch out for the timings...

The distorted Hammond is too woolly - make it snarl!

Like the staccato guitar section. But still very stereo-narrow. Pity.

Moog synth line could be more aggressive. A real MiniMoog should do it!

Last section is crying out for Mellotron 8-voice choir! I like the harmonies here. Guitar is nicely bedded in here, but too dry. I feel as if the drummer isn't using his toms enough. A bit of punctuation would be good.

==

I like the overall feel of the song. It's definitely up my alley and knocking on my door. The overall impression I get is that it's too dry, too mid-pushy and too stereo central.

[Sam Spoons]

I'm not going to comment in the mix as it's way better than I could do, in fact I'm a little reluctant to critique at all as I couldn't hope to achieve anything like it. But.... I will anyway

There are three things that spring to mind.

Firstly the gaps in the first half make it sound like several different songs, I would have liked all the sections to have something to link them, the first transition, I'd have gone straight to the guitar riff with no gap (and maybe no piano chord).

Secondly, the various elements don't seem like they are part of a whole which reinforces the feeling that it is several songs. I wanted each idea to develop more, and to hear previous motifs showing up elsewhere underscoring a later theme (maybe you have done this and I haven't yet picked it up). You could make it twice as long but still maintain interest from start to finish.

Thirdly, be a bit more harmonically adventurous on the next one, I like to be thrown a curve ball every so often and the changes are not quite 'prog' enough (more Trevor Horne "90125" Yes than "The Yes Album").

Either way I'm just listening to it for the third time in succession.

[CS70]

Thanks much for the quick response! I'm very glad that you enjoyed the song

It is one song?

Whaddaya mean "it's one song".... it's only 13 minutes long, that's lightweight stuff to us prog and underground fans.....

Shine On You Crazy Diamond is 26" 14'* but Jethro Tull probably take the Prog crown with Thick As A Brick at 43' 46"** (The only song I know where the live version is a shortened version of the studio track).

* The first chord change doesn't come until 2" 26" and the vocal doesn't start until 8' 44"

** Tubular Bells is a few minutes longer at 49" 16" but I'm not sure if it's Prog or something else.

You proggers are crazy!

Yeah, the midrange thickness is exactly what I made me think of the late 70s. Somehow it's a sound I associate with that era.

[innerchord]

Can you clarify what state you feel this mix is at? Is it a rough demo, or a final mix which you're about to release?

Fire away, man!

Could you give me a little first?
What mixes have you referenced?
What are you going for?
What are you mixing on (speakers?)
Also, seeing as it's not a song, but rather a suite of four pieces, it's even harder to critique in one go.

[Ben Asaro]

Wow, thanks so much for the detailed replies, it's truly appreciated! Sorry for the delayed response, I was in Central Park all day with the family.

Also, a word of apology in advance -- I will not be addressing comments that fall into the arrangement/producer side of things. The song is what it is, and unfortunately I don't think I can adequately address those comments without sounding defensive (oh, my precious babies lol) so I'll stick to just the mix-based comments. However, I will say this -- if you go back through the As Follows discography, you will very rarely see any repetition: I don't even really do verse/chorus, let alone overture/motive/recapitulation or theme/variation, it's just not my style. So if you're looking for that kind of writing, you won't find it here. Sorry if that disappoints.

[Ben Asaro]

Nice Yes-ish feel to this.

Thanks! I teeter between Yes and Starcastle when it comes to that type of riff. (If you're familiar with Starcastle then you'll know what I'm talking about)

It's tonally mid-heavy and stereo narrow. Don't be afraid of the pan knob!

It was a very conscious decision to keep the guitars closer to center and have the synths panned further out. However, it's entirely possible that I may have them too constrained. I'll try some other panning schema and see if I feel it enhances the song or not.

Snare is a bit 'knocky', making it sound very forward for the mix.

Agreed! Drummer used a big Ludwig snare and I totally agree! I'm not entire sure how to reduce that, it kinda driving me nuts, but I have a couple of ideas that I am going to try on the next pass. Thank you for pointing that out, though, it's already on my Hit List.

It's all a bit dry - more delay/reverb would give it a more epic feel. This is something I'm noticing throughout.

This was addressed by another forum member, and I agree, I dialed it back too much. It's on the rev list!

The opening vocal is too dry.

See above.

Watch out for the timings...

I admit, this threw me. I would love to know what you are referring to here, because if I played you an isolated part with the click, you would hear that the playing is pretty much dead on. However, I'm not sure that's what you're referring to, so ...

The distorted Hammond is too woolly - make it snarl!

Ha, funny you mention that, that was addressed in a rev after the one I posted. I ran the organ through a guitar amp sim and it worked nicely.

Like the staccato guitar section. But still very stereo-narrow. Pity.

See above.

Moog synth line could be more aggressive. A real MiniMoog should do it!

HA! I used my Mother-32/Studio Electronics Oscillation for that line. I will agree to disagree on the aggressiveness of the sound.

I like the overall feel of the song. It's definitely up my alley and knocking on my door. The overall impression I get is that it's too dry, too mid-pushy and too stereo central.

Thank you very much for your comments, they definitely echo thoughts that I've had and am glad to hear them echo back.

[Ben Asaro]

I'm not going to comment in the mix as it's way better than I could do, in fact I'm a little reluctant to critique at all as I couldn't hope to achieve anything like it. But.... I will anyway

Thank you, Mr Spoons, this comment made my day.

[Ben Asaro]

Can you clarify what state you feel this mix is at? Is it a rough demo, or a final mix which you're about to release?

Fire away, man!

Could you give me a little first?

Sorry, was literally headed out the door when I posted that terse reply.

What mixes have you referenced?

None.

What are you going for?

Sorry, I don't understand the question. I guess what I'm 'going for' is a true translation of the original performance? I'm not trying to sound like anyone or anything in particular, just let the song through ... I hope that makes sense!

What are you mixing on (speakers?)

My mains are a pair of JBL LSR2300's.

Also, seeing as it's not a song, but rather a suite of four pieces, it's even harder to critique in one go.

No, it is a song, it just has four sections that are unrelated to each other. The first two As Follows albums are concept pieces -- those are single ideas broken into a series of suites.

I agree with your assessment, though -- it's not a contiguous piece throughout.