Copyright, and a Deteriorated cassette.

[kla1]

What If you paid to have your original music copyrighted close to 20 years ago, and the format you used to record your music was cassette, that you then mailed that tape to the us copyright office, and your copyright was approved. You make videos of yourself playing the music you created on youtube many years later, and someone hears your music, then steals your music(learns to play your music, and claims they wrote it.) You take legal action, and they pull your tape out at the dc copyright office, and find your tape has become Deteriorated (that is what tapes do.) from all the time sitting there. If they can not hear your music well enough because of deteriation are you no longer protected? What does everyone who submitted a tape to the copyright office do?

[James Perrett]

Properly stored cassettes are unlikely to have deteriorated in 20 years so much that they are unplayable. However, an experienced engineer will check the pressure pad first before playing as sometimes they fall off.

I regularly transfer much older cassettes here and have few problems due to the tape itself. Usually the tapes have been damaged by playing in badly adjusted players or the shells have been damaged (which means that the tape needs to be transferred to a new shell).

[MOF]

In this scenario you still have a prior record of composing/performing on the Youtube video.
I have cassettes that are forty years old and still play fine. They were stored in cool, dry places.

[Tim Gillett]

What If you paid to have your original music copyrighted ...

Is this just hypothetical or did it actually happen? With copyrighting, normally wouldnt a written score of the piece be lodged along with a recorded performance of it? As MOF suggests, the YT upload is good dated evidence in itself.

[CS70]

If you have the YT video, that's pretty good evidence of your copyright, as neither you nor the infringer can alter the video timestamp.

As of the cassette - it's odd that it's deteriorated in 20 years... unless the conditions where it was kept were awful. Not sure if the US copyright office has any specific way to handle perishable specimens of any type (photos are another possible example among many).. but I guess it's just to ask them.

[kla1]

Properly stored cassettes are unlikely to have deteriorated in 20 years so much that they are unplayable. However, an experienced engineer will check the pressure pad first before playing as sometimes they fall off.

I regularly transfer much older cassettes here and have few problems due to the tape itself. Usually the tapes have been damaged by playing in badly adjusted players or the shells have been damaged (which means that the tape needs to be transferred to a new shell).

I do not have the specific tape (it is in it's case stored wherever at the copyright office.) I have tapes that are the same name brand from the same time of my same music, that sound very deteriorated, with the piano sound being the worst. (it is original music, I created using piano, and synth. The music falls into the category of rock, industrial, ambient, etc.) You can still hear the music on the tape, but I do not know about years from now.

[kla1]

What If you paid to have your original music copyrighted ...

Is this just hypothetical or did it actually happen? With copyrighting, normally wouldnt a written score of the piece be lodged along with a recorded performance of it? As MOF suggests, the YT upload is good dated evidence in itself.

You can see it really happened by reading my message above. Someone could transcribe my music, but I did not mail sheet music with my tape.

[kla1]

If you have the YT video, that's pretty good evidence of your copyright, as neither you nor the infringer can alter the video timestamp.

As of the cassette - it's odd that it's deteriorated in 20 years... unless the conditions where it was kept were awful. Not sure if the US copyright office has any specific way to handle perishable specimens of any type (photos are another possible example among many).. but I guess it's just to ask them.

This response is for you, and mof. Do you think the yt video would help in court if the copyright tape ends up sounding so terrible they can't hear it? I could try to talk to the copyright office again. Last time I called they put me on hold for over an hour, so I hung up.

[MOF]

Do you think the yt video would help in court if the copyright tape ends up sounding so terrible they can't hear it?

Yes, regarding the Youtube video and I presume that the US copyright office is independent and would arrange for that tape to be restored, if necessary, so that both parties could listen to it and decide if there is a case to be sent to court.
Do you have good quality audio tape copies as well? I presume that the USA has the same logging records of the electricity grid as the UK, these are recoverable by audio forensics to show exactly when that recording was made, unless it was done on a battery powered cassette recorder.

[CS70]

If you have the YT video, that's pretty good evidence of your copyright, as neither you nor the infringer can alter the video timestamp.

As of the cassette - it's odd that it's deteriorated in 20 years... unless the conditions where it was kept were awful. Not sure if the US copyright office has any specific way to handle perishable specimens of any type (photos are another possible example among many).. but I guess it's just to ask them.

This response is for you, and mof. Do you think the yt video would help in court if the copyright tape ends up sounding so terrible they can't hear it? I could try to talk to the copyright office again. Last time I called they put me on hold for over an hour, so I hung up.

As much as the music is recognizable, it should. The thing about copyright claims and counterclaims, is that it is a litigation. It's not often that it's a open and closed case (but it could be, in which case you may be offered a settlement). It will be theirs lawyer team to evaluate, and yours to evaluate and give you advice.

To the extent that the music is clearly recognizable, a video stored and timestamped by independent third-party which is not easy to tamper with, is pretty strong evidence - but a case must still be built and litigated.

Your copyright office registration should be sufficient to allow you to file a claim (I guess you're in the US as you talk of a Copyright Office with capitals).

If things are more nuanced (like a progression is similar, or lyrics are of the same tone but not very similar) , you may expect a legal battle to proof or disproof that your video contains the same material.

In any case, the best you can do if you want to pursue the claim (which means, if the "stolen" song is having enough commercial success to claim damages, a cut of the proceedings and a royalty credit such to justify the expenses) is to find and consult a music copyright specialized attorney (or two or three). He would be able to look at the specific case and evidence and give you an opinion better than any forum in the world.

[James Perrett]

Are you sure that your cassette player doesn't need new belts? Piano is very affected by wow and flutter so will be the first thing to show up any speed issues. If you are playing them on the same machine that you recorded them on then it will definitely need new belts after 20 years.

[kla1]

Do you think the yt video would help in court if the copyright tape ends up sounding so terrible they can't hear it?

Yes, regarding the Youtube video and I presume that the US copyright office is independent and would arrange for that tape to be restored, if necessary, so that both parties could listen to it and decide if there is a case to be sent to court.
Do you have good quality audio tape copies as well? I presume that the USA has the same logging records of the electricity grid as the UK, these are recoverable by audio forensics to show exactly when that recording was made, unless it was done on a battery powered cassette recorder.

Yes, I have cassette copies of the copyright tape from almost 20 years ago. I recently digitized the tape, and now have a few cd copies of the tape that is at the copyright office where I live in america. I wish I could mail the cd to the copyright office to replace the tape. Can a tape be so detiorated, that it can not be restored? What do you mean by battery powered cassette recorder canno't tell when it was made?

[kla1]

If you have the YT video, that's pretty good evidence of your copyright, as neither you nor the infringer can alter the video timestamp.

As of the cassette - it's odd that it's deteriorated in 20 years... unless the conditions where it was kept were awful. Not sure if the US copyright office has any specific way to handle perishable specimens of any type (photos are another possible example among many).. but I guess it's just to ask them.

This response is for you, and mof. Do you think the yt video would help in court if the copyright tape ends up sounding so terrible they can't hear it? I could try to talk to the copyright office again. Last time I called they put me on hold for over an hour, so I hung up.

As much as the music is recognizable, it should. The thing about copyright claims and counterclaims, is that it is a litigation. It's not often that it's a open and closed case (but it could be, in which case you may be offered a settlement). It will be theirs lawyer team to evaluate, and yours to evaluate and give you advice.

To the extent that the music is clearly recognizable, a video stored and timestamped by independent third-party which is not easy to tamper with, is pretty strong evidence - but a case must still be built and litigated.

Your copyright office registration should be sufficient to allow you to file a claim (I guess you're in the US as you talk of a Copyright Office with capitals).

If things are more nuanced (like a progression is similar, or lyrics are of the same tone but not very similar) , you may expect a legal battle to proof or disproof that your video contains the same material.

In any case, the best you can do if you want to pursue the claim (which means, if the "stolen" song is having enough commercial success to claim damages, a cut of the proceedings and a royalty credit such to justify the expenses) is to find and consult a music copyright specialized attorney (or two or three). He would be able to look at the specific case and evidence and give you an opinion better than any forum in the world.

Alot of good info. Thanks

[kla1]

Are you sure that your cassette player doesn't need new belts? Piano is very affected by wow and flutter so will be the first thing to show up any speed issues. If you are playing them on the same machine that you recorded them on then it will definitely need new belts after 20 years.

The tape doesn't sound good on a number of tape players I tried. This was a low quality recording to begin with, that has only worsened with age. Do you believe a higher quality tape player, would make the tape sound better?

[kla1]

If you have the YT video, that's pretty good evidence of your copyright, as neither you nor the infringer can alter the video timestamp.

As of the cassette - it's odd that it's deteriorated in 20 years... unless the conditions where it was kept were awful. Not sure if the US copyright office has any specific way to handle perishable specimens of any type (photos are another possible example among many).. but I guess it's just to ask them.

This response is for you, and mof. Do you think the yt video would help in court if the copyright tape ends up sounding so terrible they can't hear it? I could try to talk to the copyright office again. Last time I called they put me on hold for over an hour, so I hung up.

As much as the music is recognizable, it should. The thing about copyright claims and counterclaims, is that it is a litigation. It's not often that it's a open and closed case (but it could be, in which case you may be offered a settlement). It will be theirs lawyer team to evaluate, and yours to evaluate and give you advice.

To the extent that the music is clearly recognizable, a video stored and timestamped by independent third-party which is not easy to tamper with, is pretty strong evidence - but a case must still be built and litigated.

Your copyright office registration should be sufficient to allow you to file a claim (I guess you're in the US as you talk of a Copyright Office with capitals).

If things are more nuanced (like a progression is similar, or lyrics are of the same tone but not very similar) , you may expect a legal battle to proof or disproof that your video contains the same material.

In any case, the best you can do if you want to pursue the claim (which means, if the "stolen" song is having enough commercial success to claim damages, a cut of the proceedings and a royalty credit such to justify the expenses) is to find and consult a music copyright specialized attorney (or two or three). He would be able to look at the specific case and evidence and give you an opinion better than any forum in the world.

Thanks. Alot of good info. Can I copyright the music from 2001 again, by mailing a better recording of the same music?

[James Perrett]

The tape doesn't sound good on a number of tape players I tried. This was a low quality recording to begin with, that has only worsened with age. Do you believe a higher quality tape player, would make the tape sound better?

I'm really surprised that an unplayed recording would deteriorate after as little as 20 years. Much of my collection is double that age or more and still perfectly playable - even the budget own brand tapes.

My other thought is that maybe it never sounded as good as you though it did. I've had this happen with old recordings that I haven't listened to for years. I spent years thinking one particular recording sounded really great but when I revisited it recently I realised that it was actually rubbish by the standard of my later recordings.

[Eddy Deegan]

Thanks. Alot of good info. Can I copyright the music from 2001 again, by mailing a better recording of the same music?

It may well be that you can, but at this point you're really better off contacting the copyright office directly and asking them that question.

Tapes do deteriorate over time but it's usually a lot longer than 20 years. I have cassettes that are 35+ years old stored in the roof of my house that are still viable, if not hi-fi quality (not that they ever were hi-fi to begin with). I did see an article recently about the shortcomings of the storage facilities the US copyright office use but it is to be expected that every individual who contacts them will get a different answer.

In short, verify the state of your lodged copy. Then, if necessary, follow up with a refreshed version of the work for them to archive.

There is a world of difference between a tape that has deteriorated for the listener vs. a tape that has deteriorated to the point that the material on it is no longer recognisable. I would be surprised if the copyright office needed pristine recordings, as for their purposes they only really need recognisable ones.

It sounds very much to me as if you should contact them with your concerns and see what they have to say about it. If you were to share the results of that conversation with us then I am sure that future readers would benefit from it.

[kla1]

Thanks. Alot of good info. Can I copyright the music from 2001 again, by mailing a better recording of the same music?

It may well be that you can, but at this point you're really better off contacting the copyright office directly and asking them that question.

Tapes do deteriorate over time but it's usually a lot longer than 20 years. I have cassettes that are 35+ years old stored in the roof of my house that are still viable, if not hi-fi quality (not that they ever were hi-fi to begin with). I did see an article recently about the shortcomings of the storage facilities the US copyright office use but it is to be expected that every individual who contacts them will get a different answer.

In short, verify the state of your lodged copy. Then, if necessary, follow up with a refreshed version of the work for them to archive.

There is a world of difference between a tape that has deteriorated for the listener vs. a tape that has deteriorated to the point that the material on it is no longer recognisable. I would be surprised if the copyright office needed pristine recordings, as for their purposes they only really need recognisable ones.

It sounds very much to me as if you should contact them with your concerns and see what they have to say about it. If you were to share the results of that conversation with us then I am sure that future readers would benefit from it.

I wan't to thank you, James, and everyone else. I will try to contact the copyright office.

[MOF]

Can I copyright the music from 2001 again, by mailing a better recording of the same music?

Not much point because it would be copyrighted with today’s date, since the original that you deposited, if as bad as you say you think it will be, won’t be listenable and so who’s to say it’s the same song.

What do you mean by battery powered cassette recorder canno't tell when it was made?

Because it’s ‘mains’ borne noise, however I read that battery recorders can pick up mains interference too so may also have the mains ‘date stamp’.

[kla1]

Can I copyright the music from 2001 again, by mailing a better recording of the same music?

Not much point because it would be copyrighted with today’s date, since the original that you deposited, if as bad as you say you think it will be, won’t be listenable and so who’s to say it’s the same song.

What do you mean by battery powered cassette recorder canno't tell when it was made?

Because it’s ‘mains’ borne noise, however I read that battery recorders can pick up mains interference too so may also have the mains ‘date stamp’.

I believe the tape is listenable, but I do not know about years from now. That is why I wan't to mail a cd to replace the tape if possible.

[James Perrett]

Is this replacement a commercially made pressed CD or a home burned CD? A cassette is likely to be playable for longer than the average home burned CD.

[kla1]

Is this replacement a commercially made pressed CD or a home burned CD? A cassette is likely to be playable for longer than the average home burned CD.

It is a home burned cd, that I thought lasted way longer, than home made cassettes? You know way more about this than I, but I thought some cd's could last forever?

[Tim Gillett]

Unfortunately nothing lasts forever, not even digital! True story. An early cassette of a wedding ceremony and reception recorded in 1965 had survived almost perfectly for 55 years. Then in 2020 an unskilled person tried to digitise it and destroyed a section of it when the playback machine 'ate' it. It took expert work to retrieve the cassette from the machine and then to play what remained properly with no further damage. The belief that anything digital lasts forever is actually making things worse. People are making poor digital copies of analog recordings including films, and then throwing away the originals. New is not always better or longer lasting.

[James Perrett]

I thought some cd's could last forever?

A glass mastered, moulded commercial CD should last for a long time if properly treated but most modern CD-R's are made very cheaply and may not last more than a few years. I'm still using up my stock of Japanese Taiyo Yuden CD's (which last at least 25 years) so I've not tried many other brands but, when I have, the results have always been disappointing. I check the error rates on the CD's I create and many previously respectable brands (like TDK or Maxell) nowadays show horrendously high error rates compared to the Taiyo Yudens.

[kla1]

Unfortunately nothing lasts forever, not even digital! True story. An early cassette of a wedding ceremony and reception recorded in 1965 had survived almost perfectly for 55 years. Then in 2020 an unskilled person tried to digitise it and destroyed a section of it when the playback machine 'ate' it. It took expert work to retrieve the cassette from the machine and then to play what remained properly with no further damage. The belief that anything digital lasts forever is actually making things worse. People are making poor digital copies of analog recordings including films, and then throwing away the originals. New is not always better or longer lasting.

I agree. I say Digitize, and always hang on to the original.