Tascam Model 12 midi features (or lack of) ? Anyone have one?

[johnr10]

Yes, the way it is advertised in many places is misleading.

As to why I'm bothered - that's a really good question and it fits in with the longer question I was going to post.

You're totally right. I use Logic so everything becomes digital at some point but I guess the question is at what point(s).

I'm not a luddite, quite the opposite. But I do like analogue. I use a tube preamp on my turntable (and also any digital signals going in to my amp, like streaming or - rarely cd's). I have a 1950s German tube radio that I love the sound of even though it's not 'hifi'.

I like the warmth that analogue can add to a sound, especially tubes. But, yes, as you say, everything will be digital at the main stage.

I'm actually totally torn between what to get.

I'm pretty sold on a motorised daw controller - especially the Behringer x-touch. The idea of full control of the daw and effects, compared with just the transport/faders (basically) on the Tascam, is really attractive. Just having the faders automatically reset for each project alone is a big sell. I've never been overly keen on using a mouse/trackpad for music - especially effect and automation - and this feels like it will fulfil a need.

So then I ask myself, well, if I'm using Logic, and the X-touch, the only thing I need to improve is my mic (and maybe a cloudlifter or fethead if I get an SM7B) and an audio interface with more digital channels.

I have two needs.

1) Podcasting - in nearly every case it will involve remote interviewing, so guest audio coming in digitally over the internet (cleanfeed.net or similar) combined with video from skype/zoom etc (I have the video side covered). So the incoming audio is not going to be *great* to start with, no matter how good the system to transfer the audio is, most guests will not have good mics or setups. That said, I still want to do the best I can with it.

2) My own music as a hobby (something I've not done properly for a long time but want to get back in to).

I use a mac, and have Loopback V2, so that allows me great flexibility in internal routing to set up things like mix-minuses etc.

My current AI (the Rubix 24) would work for now as long as I didn't have an external mixer and only used logic - but if I wanted discreet channels to a mixer, it would have to be replaced.

I could use the Tascam Model 12, and then I wouldn't need a new audio interface (at least for now), it will have enough discreet channels for my current needs but at only 48 Khz (frankly, does a higher rate matter for my use? Not really).

Or I could get something like the UMC1820 with 18 discreet channels at 96 Khz. or, if I spent more, a Scar­lett 18i20 3rd Gen which would give me 18 discreet channels at 192 Khz.

But, without using ADAT (ie, more expense on converters), they both only give me 10 line-outs if I were to use a mixer too - so that leaves me no better off than using the Tascam Model 12.

However the daw control on the 12 is basic. Transport and faders are good (although the faders are only 60mm), but no recall, no motors, no ability to control effects etc... So I'd want to get a control surface too anyway.

So... (anyone still here?) if I have Logic on the mac, and I have a control surface with motorised faders, and I had an 18 channel AI with midi, and I have Loopback to route internally - what benefit to I get from the Tascam Model 12 over 1) an analogue mixer, and 2) no mixer at all.

At the least, I'd be paying twice for the daw control - why would I use the 12 as a daw control if I had an X-touch or similar? And I don't need the recording features of the 12 either. I have a Tascam 70D that I can use to record backups of interviews etc (ok, not as smooth an operation as having it on the desk, but still usable).

So if I am using it only as a mixer, the signal path and eq are all digital - what does it add apart from my space being taken up?

So that is what is putting me off the 12.

If I am going to run a mixing desk alongside an X-Touch, doesn't it make sense that I don't waste money on duplicated features?

And if I am using logic as daw, and the control surface with that, then what benefit does a mixer give me other than the extra warmth of an analogue desk (a good one, I'm not saying all analogue desks are naturally better than the 12, obviously) and the routing flexibility (that I may not even need)?

I started recording music in the 80s on a Tascam portastudio, then studied sound engineering about 90 or so (the college had some 'modern' equipment, we had Cubase and some samplers, but we still learned to splice tap etc). Never went into music professionally and never will, although I do use it for work related activities of my own.

But that background is what is tempting to towards the combination of a control surface, AI, and an analogue desk.

I know what I need for my immediate use (podcasting), but I already have that (a mic, an AI with XLR input, logic, loopback - not much I can't do with that combination).

But my dilemma is if I am going to invest in improving this system and getting a good system so I can start recording music as a hobby again, what is the best direction for me to go?

Ultimately I guess it's a fair point to say I don't know what I need and wont know for sure until I start recording and mixing music again. But I'm not good at selling on equipment, so I'd rather 1) get it right first time (ha ) or 2) get things that I can build on rather than replace.

Look, I could go pickup a Tascam 12 right now (literally, there is one 20 minutes away and they have price matched Thomman) and it's sooooo tempting. But I'm trying to be sensible - or as sensible as I can be - and pick the right system for both my needs now, my wants now, and leave me with enough flexibility to expand.

Feel free to say 'you need to think more about what you want' - that's true, it's all I've been doing for the last week (and that's based on months of background thinking and years of on/off experience). And feel free to (politely) slap me and say 'Just get the 12 and shut up, it will do what you need and more'

Phew. And that is just using some of the points from the longer question I wrote. I'm still thinking it over so depending on how this thread develops or not I may post an amended version at some point if needed on a separate thread as there are more people likely to see it I guess.

Thanks for your help.

[Drew Stephenson]

Personally i'd say ditch the mixer. Get a decent ai (the Scarlett you mention is a safe bet), and get a control surface if you like being hands on. I do, so i have, but it's always worth keeping an eye on the secondhand market because lots of people buy a control surface, never really use it, and finally move it on. Prices tend to be reasonably high for secondhand gear, but they've generally hardly been used.

P.s. analogue warmth isn't really a thing. It's just saturation/distortion and can easily be introduced in your DAW whenever you want it.

[The Elf]

Personally i'd say ditch the mixer. Get a decent ai (the Scarlett you mention is a safe bet), and get a control surface if you like being hands on. I do, so i have, but it's always worth keeping an eye on the secondhand market because lots of people buy a control surface, never really use it, and finally move it on. Prices tend to be reasonably high for secondhand gear, but they've generally hardly been used.

P.s. analogue warmth isn't really a thing. It's just saturation/distortion and can easily be introduced in your DAW whenever you want it.

A truer block of words has never been written.

[johnr10]

Personally i'd say ditch the mixer. Get a decent ai (the Scarlett you mention is a safe bet), and get a control surface if you like being hands on. I do, so i have, but it's always worth keeping an eye on the secondhand market because lots of people buy a control surface, never really use it, and finally move it on. Prices tend to be reasonably high for secondhand gear, but they've generally hardly been used.

P.s. analogue warmth isn't really a thing. It's just saturation/distortion and can easily be introduced in your DAW whenever you want it.

Well, on the last point, words like 'warmth' are just ways to describe things (although tubes get damn hot!) but I know *I* prefer the sound of my turntable - or any other source - when it's through the tube pre-amp than when it isn't. And the sound of my tube radio is much nicer than the sound of a modern digital radio. (Of course, if I did get an analogue desk it wouldn't be tube-based, I know).

And it's all personal preference and no point arguing about it.

But in reality, I also know I don't need an analogue desk for what I am doing and the final output source will be the internet where it will most likely be played on crap speakers or a phone. I guess I'm just trying to cling to the past and/or keep a bit of 'soul' in things.

From a workflow point of view a control surface and a desk does seem cumbersome and I can easily see I wouldn't use the desk for much apart from mic/guitars in for most things, so unless the preamps were *hugely* better than the inputs on a separate AI, it wouldn't make much sense. And I could always add one in the future if I felt I needed it without scraping any thing else.

So yes, as you suggest, I am leaning towards an AI and control surface. I do want to be hands on. I want faders, I want eq via knobs etc. And motorised faders is a dream (and very practical if only 8 faders on the control surface).

There is someone selling a 6-month old, allegedly perfect condition, x-touch control surface plus an extender locally for 600 euro (new price from Thomman would be 684). Maybe I could get that down a bit, it's been listed since March so either sold and not de-listed, or still available and ready for a price drop. That could be an option.

Combined with an AI - if I got the 600 euro control surface (16 motorised faders with the extender), the Scarlett blows my budget so it may have to be the UMC1820 - that combination would do want I need and more. I don't know what, if any, internal routing software the AIs come with but I have Loopback which can handle that if nothing suitable.

If I didn't spend so much on the mic (ie, instead of an sm7b with fethead, something like a Procaster + shockmount), I'd have more wiggle room and could get the Scarlett but obviously it's not as good a mic full stop and especially for instruments - although competent enough for podcasting obviously. But the mic is something I wouldn't want to rush to replace/upgrade.

I can't find the EIN of the UCM1820, but the 18i20 is -128db, so it may be a fethead or cloudlifter isn't needed for the sm7b, although that doesn't save too much (the fethead in a bundle with the mic adds 61 euros).

But the basic principle of a motorised fader control surface (whether 8, or 16 with the extender), an AI, and a new mic does seem to cover everything I *need*, as long as the AI has midi in which the ones I'm looking at do.

Now, does anyone disagree?

[Drew Stephenson]

Not going to disagree, but I will lob in a couple more thoughts.
Firstly, I wouldn't compromise the mic for the sake of the AI.
But secondly, I wouldn't compromise the AI for the sake of the control surface!
The control surface can always be added later without any detriment to the sound in the meantime.
Consider also that your control surface is not going to give you that EQ-knobs-wiggling effect of a hands-on mixer. Unless you get hold of something like a BCR2000 and configure it to do that job. (Funnily enough, that's what I did. )

P.S. I'm not for a moment suggesting that you don't prefer the sound of your tube gear, just that it's not something magical that only exists in the analogue domain.

[johnr10]

Not going to disagree, but I will lob in a couple more thoughts.
Firstly, I wouldn't compromise the mic for the sake of the AI.
But secondly, I wouldn't compromise the AI for the sake of the control surface!
The control surface can always be added later without any detriment to the sound in the meantime.
Consider also that your control surface is not going to give you that EQ-knobs-wiggling effect of a hands-on mixer. Unless you get hold of something like a BCR2000 and configure it to do that job. (Funnily enough, that's what I did. )

P.S. I'm not for a moment suggesting that you don't prefer the sound of your tube gear, just that it's not something magical that only exists in the analogue domain.

Yes, good points. I just really hate using daws with a trackpad (although that said I've never used on with a control surface apart from a quick play with the avid app on a tablet). Probably better to say that when I've previously had a mixer - even like the tascam portastudio - there's just something more organic about faders and knobs.

I've watched some videos on the x-touch and yes, while it's not quite the same as a per-channel eq section, it does allow you to fairly easily adjust the eq using the knobs. Probably take a bit of getting used to, but the more I can take my hands away from a keyboard and trackpad, the more they can be on a keyboard or guitar

If I got the Scarlett at 433 euro, the SMB7 at 398, and if I can get the second hand X-touch and extender done to 550, that would be 281 over my budget. Do-able but...

But if I did the same with a brand new X-touch without extender, it would come down to 1230, only 130 over my budget.

I'll have a think (and see if the x-touch guy gets back in touch - no pun intended).

Thanks for the input (again...)

[The Elf]

The X-Touch is a great piece of kit, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will spend 80% of its life gathering dust - but you will only believe this when you've tried it for yourself.

[johnr10]

The X-Touch is a great piece of kit, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will spend 80% of its life gathering dust - but you will only believe this when you've tried it for yourself.

I can believe it... If i got the Tascam Model 12 at 599, that gives me a mixer, ai, and basic daw control...

One concern about the daw control is the faders. If i set logic tracks 1 to 8 as individual outs to the faders to control the volume and set it in logic using the faders, what happens it I then change one or more tracks to go to a channel on the mixer. The fader will be set for the previous track. If i just wanted to fine tune thia new track, am i out of luck and have to start from the previoua fader position?

Yes, I'm back to considering the Tascam...

[resistorman]

The X-Touch is a great piece of kit, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will spend 80% of its life gathering dust - but you will only believe this when you've tried it for yourself.

Agreed. I tried hard to love mine, and it actually worked really well with the simplified layout of Harrison Mixbus. But ultimately it was much easier and faster to work in the box and I sold it.

On a side note, the Model 12 saved my bacon today. I was fiddling around with my Eurorack and accidentally came up with a great drone sound for a Taxi listing I'm looking at. All I had to do was reach over and hit record (the master out is always armed so I didn't have to worry about arming tracks and levels) and captured some good stuff. My experience is that if you break your concentration for more than a second or two this sort of thing gets lost forever.

[johnr10]

Another desk that interests me is the Soundcraft MTK12 (or even the MTK16 or MTK22 if I pushed things). Built in audio interface, analogue desk.

It also has a feature that I don't think the Tascam 12 has?

Every analogue signal going in to a channel is sent to the daw via usb and (optionally) returned again. Basically, it's an insert. So, if you want, you can turn the return off and the signal goes from the analogue input, through the analogue eq etc (as well as going to the daw), or you can turn on the return and the analogue input goes to the daw, and returns into the signal path with whatever processing you've added.

The MTK22 has 24 usb in channels and 22 out. I can get it for 777 euros.

So that would remove the need for an AI (433 for the scarlet). Ok, I'd lose midi, but I already have ways to get midi in (Rubix 24, midi to usb cable) - plus my keyboard has usb too although it is old (it's a CME UF7) so not sure if it is supported on Catalina.

Main downside is I lose daw control completely, plus motorised faders for recall (obviously).

[johnr10]

Just had a realisation... (and you have to bear in mind I'm not had a chance to use the keyboard for years and my audio work has been limited to mixing voice, stock music and foley for videos for a long time - and I've not even had the keyboard controller set up for years...).

The CME UF7 comes with 9 faders, 9 knobs, transport controls etc... i can assign them to logic and that will give me the basic control I'd get with a simple mixer/control surface. Sure, not the same as a motorised control like the x-touch, and not a mixing desk, but should do what I *need* vs *want*.

Also, I asked a question about using the faders to control logic and would it totally override settings if I moved to a new track, but I've just watched a video on this and see that it doesn't take control of the value (say volume of the track if a fader), until the fader hits the current level. That solves that problem.

So... at least for now I don't need a mixing desk or control surface. I just need a better AI with multiple channels and clean high gain inputs, and a new mic.

Am I on the right track?

[Drew Stephenson]

A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future.

[johnr10]

A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future.

Someone shoot me please!

These pros and cons are mainly only those that matter to me.

Mtk12/16/22 - pros: analogue mixer, built-in ai, usb return (ie using the daw as an insert), better routing options. Cons: no daw control so mixer faders etc are detached from logic.

Tascam - pros: could get it today , built-in ai, daw control, midi (so could sell my Rubix24) Cons: no usb return insert feature, only 10 out, digital mixer, features I don't need (like recording - would use it but only for backup audio recording of live interviews i would imagine and my 70d would do that)

AI and my existing midi keyboard as daw controller. Pros : better quality AI (at least higher sample rate) than either desk but I don't neer that. Cheaper, but for less features. Cons: using keyboard for daw control not ideal, having to lean over keys during an interview (which is video too) to adjust gain with faders etc

Writing that makes me think the only thing really putting me off the Tascam is the lack of per channel usb return.. But i wonder how much i need that. Any workaround?

Thanks

[Sam Spoons]

Why would you need to adjust gains during an interview? If you are the interviewer you need to concentrate on the job in hand so set the gains beforehand and do just the one job. You can easily sort the balance out in post if you record at 24/48 as you'll have far more headroom than you need.

[johnr10]

Why would you need to adjust gains during an interview? If you are the interviewer you need to concentrate on the job in hand so set the gains beforehand and do just the one job. You can easily sort the balance out in post if you record at 24/48 as you'll have far more headroom than you need.

Well if i was doing something live and had multiple guests for instance. Doing the one job is great if you have staff but...

[johnr10]

A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future.

Forgive me, i meant to say thank you! I'm waiting for my daughter to come out of minor surgery and killing/using time but not thinking straight. Didn't mean to be rude in my reply. All gone fine btw, in recovery now.

[Drew Stephenson]

Good to hear everything has gone well, and no worries, all taken with positive intent.

[Sam Spoons]

A better mic and AI will certainly not take you away from your target, and you can always add a control surface in the future.

Forgive me, i meant to say thank you! I'm waiting for my daughter to come out of minor surgery and killing/using time but not thinking straight. Didn't mean to be rude in my reply. All gone fine btw, in recovery now.

No problem, hadn't crossed my mind. Glad she's on the mend.

Why would you need to adjust gains during an interview? If you are the interviewer you need to concentrate on the job in hand so set the gains beforehand and do just the one job. You can easily sort the balance out in post if you record at 24/48 as you'll have far more headroom than you need.

Well if i was doing something live and had multiple guests for instance. Doing the one job is great if you have staff but...

Understood if it's live . For recorded though material the dynamic range of 24 bit recording is such that you probably don't need to worry about levels while recording as you can fix them in post.

[johnr10]

Yes, I just set up the faders on the keyboard to control master and channels 1 to 8, but what I feared is right. It's very hard (at least, the way I have it positioned with the keyboard to the right of where I'll be looking to interview people) to change the faders without hitting some of the keys. Even with no channels for the midi active, the keys themselves made quite a load bouncy sound that would be picked up - at least with my current mic, perhaps less so with a dynamic mic like the sm7b. A small mixer is going to be more manageable in front of me than a 76 key keyboard

Still, I've gone another day without rushing somewhere to buy something or ordering anything online - although I sure need to make a move soon.

In other news, I turned off the overclocking on my mac (it's a hackintosh), and the background noise is now much better now the fans are not working as hard. Still not 'perfect' of course, and won't be, but better.

[nathanscribe]

Johnr10, the Model 12 is an analog mixer with some digital features like USB and effects. The signal path is analog.

[Ah, you edited your reply between me writing this. You said it was NOT digital. So my reply to that was...]

Sorry, but it is.

From the intro in the manual itself '10 input digital mixer with 10 line and 8 mic inputs ' (second feature on the Introduction page).

https://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/Model12_Manual.pdf

One the sound comes in, it goes through an ADC and after that, all eq and effects etc are purely digital.

This is interesting.

The manual for the 12 says clearly "digital mixer", whereas for the 16 and 24 they're "analogue mixers" with digital recorders.

A quick look at the block diagram for the 16 shows it to be an analogue mixer, with analogue comp and EQ, with sends to the digital recorder seemingly taken from before those.

[johnr10]

Johnr10, the Model 12 is an analog mixer with some digital features like USB and effects. The signal path is analog.

[Ah, you edited your reply between me writing this. You said it was NOT digital. So my reply to that was...]

Sorry, but it is.

From the intro in the manual itself '10 input digital mixer with 10 line and 8 mic inputs ' (second feature on the Introduction page).

https://www.tascam.eu/en/docs/Model12_Manual.pdf

One the sound comes in, it goes through an ADC and after that, all eq and effects etc are purely digital.

This is interesting.

The manual for the 12 says clearly "digital mixer", whereas for the 16 and 24 they're "analogue mixers" with digital recorders.

A quick look at the block diagram for the 16 shows it to be an analogue mixer, with analogue comp and EQ, with sends to the digital recorder seemingly taken from before those.

Yes, they are different beasts, they just look the same.

Still totally stuck on what to get.

I was looking at the Presonus 16.0.2 USB but it's only 4 out.

The Soundcraft 12MTK or 22MTK are interesting, but no daw control.

If I could find something that had 10/12 in/out (or 16 etc, depends on cost, not bothered about size), and daw control, that would be perfect...

[Sam Spoons]

X32 Producer, 22 analogue inputs, 14 analogue outputs, 32/32 USB I/O. Very flexible and expandable (up to 40/22 simultaneous physical I/O). The only downside is that it costs £1022. TBH if size is not an issue I'd spend the extra £133 and buy the Compact for it's LCD scribble strips.

[Stratman57]

As you've already expressed an interest in the X-Touch, I would suggest getting a Behringer XR18 to go with it.

You'd then have an 18 in/out digital mixer/audio interface, both controllable by the X-Touch, 1 button push lets you switch between DAW control and mixer control.

I use this combination for studio and live applications. The stage box format also means that you don't have to have it taking up space on your desk.

Regards, Simon.

[johnr10]

X32 Producer, 22 analogue inputs, 14 analogue outputs, 32/32 USB I/O. Very flexible and expandable (up to 40/22 simultaneous physical I/O). The only downside is that it costs £1022. TBH if size is not an issue I'd spend the extra £133 and buy the Compact for it's LCD scribble strips.

Yes, I've been looking at those. Just a bit out of budget along with the SM7B but could be possible to find a way...

I looked at it in some detail a couple of weeks ago but not since, so will give it another examination. Thanks.

[johnr10]

As you've already expressed an interest in the X-Touch, I would suggest getting a Behringer XR18 to go with it.

You'd then have an 18 in/out digital mixer/audio interface, both controllable by the X-Touch, 1 button push lets you switch between DAW control and mixer control.

I use this combination for studio and live applications. The stage box format also means that you don't have to have it taking up space on your desk.

Regards, Simon.

Thanks Simon, so you use an XR18 along with the X-Touch? I only want it for studio, not live. Any particular limitations or issues I should be aware of?

I'll take a look in to it in more detail.

Thanks again