Small mobile rig for recording live

[manwilde]

Hi all. I´ve been asked to help with the live sound for a small concert tomorrow. It´s drums, bass, one electric guitar and one singer. The band has a small PA system (https://www.thomann.de/es/yamaha_stagepas_400bt.htm), and it would be a matter of just helping setting up and keeping an eye on the sound while they play. No problem, but... they want to record the gig also.
I´ll carry my small setup: HP laptop i5 @2.8Ghz, 8G RAM, 256 Gb SSD, Win7 Reaper, RME Babyface (two analog inputs) + Focusrite Octopre via ADAT, DI boxes, headphones, etc. I will also take some mics on my own along with what the band has, which I know nothing about.

Tomorrow I´ll find my way and try to do everything as practical as possible, but I think I´ll have more similar gigs coming up, so I´d like to ask:
Would you try to go first into the mic pres and feed the live mixer from the analog outputs of the recording rig, or would it be better to buy some mic splitters (ART S8 comes to mind)?.

First choice would allow me to do some basic mixing from Totalmix (even from Reaper without using lots of plugins to avoid latency problems?), and save me some money and cable hassle. Right now my latency at 48k is 4.4 ms at the lowest buffer size.
Second one (mic splitters) would keep me from depending on computer crashes or latency problems; my laptop and Reaper feel both rock solid, but you never know...

What would you do?

Thanks a lot in advance for your advice.

[James Perrett]

I'd say that the mic splitter route is going to be the safest - that's what I do for live recording although more and more venues have digital desks where you can either just plug in a computer or a disk to capture everything.

There are a few budget splitters around including Studiospares' own brand though mine is home made.

[Mike Stranks]

Splitters every time.

Great is the wrath if you as the recording person inadvertently compromise the live sound in any way. Been there... done that... lesson learnt.

[Hugh Robjohns]

And another vote for splitters from me. Running everything through the computer first is asking for trouble!

[Aled Hughes]

And another vote for splitters from me. Running everything through the computer first is asking for trouble!

Agreed. Though if you’re going to do it, RME and Reaper is as safe a bet as any!

If you’re looking at doing this kind of thing often, the Soundcraft UI24R is a very well packed box of tricks, and offers onboard multitracking as well as working as an USB interface, so you have a backup record path.

[AlecSp]

If you’re looking at doing this kind of thing often, the Soundcraft UI24R is a very well packed box of tricks, and offers onboard multitracking as well as working as an USB interface, so you have a backup record path.

As does pretty much any digital mixer - definitely much less faff than setting up splits and all.

Obviously, this isn't much help if you don't have said mixer - though the investment needn't be high, and might be less than a whole load of splitters.

[manwilde]

Thanks for your replies. Tomorrow's gig is a very humble affaire. The small mixer this band uses has only 4 mic pres. I wonder if they just use one mic per instrument, including drums...
If I go first to the Octopre and use its analog outs to go to said mixer, am I getting the computer out of the live sound path? I mean, if the computer crashed, the Octopre would still be feeding audio to the mixer, am I right?

Just thinking...

[AlecSp]

If I go first to the Octopre and use its analog outs to go to said mixer, am I getting the computer out of the live sound path? I mean, if the computer crashed, the Octopre would still be feeding audio to the mixer, am I right?.

Er, RTFM...?

"LINE OUTPUTS 1 to 8 – eight balanced analogue line outputs on ¼” 3-pole (TRS) jack sockets. These connectors are always active, and carry the outputs of Channels 1 to 8, enabling the Scarlett OctoPre to be used as a stand-alone, high quality 8-channel analogue mic pre."

"By connecting the line outputs of the Scarlett OctoPre to the analogue line inputs of a mixing console (or any other device), the unit can be used either as a purely analogue, 8-channel microphone pre-amplifier. "

[manwilde]

Yes, I already knew that, but thank you anyway. My concern is whether any pop or crack sound would be passed through the analog outputs of the Octo if something goes wrong with the computer and I have to turn it off and back on, or if the ADAT cable comes out of the socket by accident...

[Aled Hughes]

As does pretty much any digital mixer

Most don't allow dual-path recording, at least not with an extra/after-market card.

[manwilde]

Hi again. Yesterday I recorded the gig using six inputs on the Octopre coming into the computer via Babyface´s ADAT IN while sending the line outputs from the Octopre to the PA mixer. Everything worked perfectly!.

Still I keep in mind what you all said about trying to avoid leaning on a computer for this kind of job, and one thing got me thinking: since both Babyface and Octopre can work in standalone mode, with no computer attached, I´m willing to simulate an accident, setting up to record just as I did yesterday and abruptly unplugging the laptop´s mains socket to see what happens (of course this will be in a private event, no actual live performance taking place).
As soon as I manage to proceed with the test I´ll post the results just in case it´s helpful for anyone reading this.

Any thoughts or words of advice?.

Thanks all!

[Sam Spoons]

Surely pulling the laptops mains connector will just cause it to switch to battery, you need to either shut it down or, for a real test, cause it to crash...

[Mike Stranks]

Hi again. Yesterday I recorded the gig using six inputs on the Octopre coming into the computer via Babyface´s ADAT IN while sending the line outputs from the Octopre to the PA mixer. Everything worked perfectly!.

Still I keep in mind what you all said about trying to avoid leaning on a computer for this kind of jobl!...

Glad it went well.

The 'two paths' approach with splitters is much more than avoiding "leaning on a computer". I've been involved in all sorts of sound jobs where the live-sound and recording are sharing the same set of mics - on both the live and recording sides. You wouldn't believe the number of different ways there are of screwing-up the duality if one aspect is dependent on the other.

In my fairly considerable experience - and having the war stories to illustrate it - the safest ways are splitters or an integrated livesound/multitrack system. Anything else will probably bite you on the bum at some point...

[manwilde]

@ Sam: Yes, sorry. That´s what I meant, shutting the computer off. My laptop never has the battery attached when I´m home (I use a PSU instead), but I obviously it does when working outside. Thanks for pointing that out, anyway. Out of curiosity: how do you make a computer crash on purpose?

@Mike: Thank you for your advice. Taking a look at mic splitters that won´t break the bank, and following suggestions on this thread, I´ve found that the Studiospares RED800 (https://www.studiospares.com/8-channel-mic-splitter---studiospares-red800_458950.htm) sells for 110€, while the ART S8 (https://www.studiospares.com/art-s8-8-way-passive-mic-splitter_325480.htm) is 285€. I guess the difference in price is due to quality construction?. Is the Studiospares reliable enough?.

Thanks all.

[Saxum esse et non provolvere]

It might also be worth considering this :

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/micsplit.htm

Not that I’m affiliated with them in any way - just a happy (and repeated) customer.

[Mike Stranks]

@Mike: Thank you for your advice. Taking a look at mic splitters that won´t break the bank, and following suggestions on this thread, I´ve found that the Studiospares RED800 (https://www.studiospares.com/8-channel-mic-splitter---studiospares-red800_458950.htm) sells for 110€, while the ART S8 (https://www.studiospares.com/art-s8-8-way-passive-mic-splitter_325480.htm) is 285€. I guess the difference in price is due to quality construction?. Is the Studiospares reliable enough?.

Thanks all.

Some of my work was for BBC Local Radio and I never found the need to invest in the 'expensive' splitters. I was at the Studiospares end of the spectrum... I have several of their RED boxes for various utility tasks; they're well-built and have always performed more than satisfactorily for me.

The more expensive splitters are probably using 'better' transformers. They can handle a wider dynamic range without distorting. But it was never an issue for me.

and for Orchid...

And while I'm here... part of the 'splitters protocol' needs to be to determine pre-gig who will be providing phantom power to any capacitor mics in use. It needs to be agreed if it will be 'live' or 'recorded' - not both (or neither ! )

[manwilde]

Thanks all for your suggestions!. I think I´ll go for the Studiospares then.
Mike, regarding "splitters protocol", what are the pros and cons of doing it one way vs. the other?. It´s not that I´m doing lots of live gigs, and when I do I will probably be taking care of both recording and live sound, but I´d like to be aware of potential pitfalls should the case arrive.

[James Perrett]

And while I'm here... part of the 'splitters protocol' needs to be to determine pre-gig who will be providing phantom power to any capacitor mics in use. It needs to be agreed if it will be 'live' or 'recorded' - not both (or neither ! )

Can I put in a suggestion that it is the person with phantom power controlled by old fashioned switches rather than software. On one live recording I lost a few channels because the audio interface had to be rebooted and 'someone' forgot to switch the phantom power on after the reboot.

[MarkPAman]

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/micsplit.htm

As with all Orchid product I've used, this one works well with no fuss.
I've just double checked on one we have here at college, joining a studio to a small performance/video recording space.
The second set of outputs has an earth lift. As well as helping prevent each loops, this also effectively blocks phantom from the desk on that side.
I our case, the performance space desk only has the one universal phantom button, so we run with the studio preamps supplying the 48V when needed.

In my live work, I've a loom of 24 XLRs with pin 1 disconnected at one end for running splitters for much the same reason .... Though now I've started dipping my toe into the world of Dante, that may not be needed again.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The second set of outputs has an earth lift. As well as helping prevent each loops, this also effectively blocks phantom from the desk on that side.

It's the transformer that blocks phantom. Just relying on the ground lift wouldn't work because the phantom supply's ground reference would find it's way back to the other console via the mains and so the mic lines would still be biased to somewhere around 48V regardless of a lift in the audio cable screen ground.

Most passive mic splitters are wired with direct connections between the mic input socket, the direct or main output, and the transformer primary winding.

Thus the direct or main output is the only one that can pass phantom to the mic.

The second output (and third/fourth if present) come from secondary windings on the transformer, and so are completely electrically isolated and cannot pass phantom, regardless of whether the output grounds are linked or lifted.

Here's a diagram of a typical passive splitter borrowed from a GS post:



As for who provides the phantom power... the usual convention in professional circles is for the FOH system to provide phantom power to split mics since it is their gig to control...

But if they aren't using any phantom mics, or you want to substitute capacitor mics for the recording in place of some of their normal dynamic choices, then it may be negotiated that the recording rig provides phantom...

it will always come down to a discussion... but personally, if I was running the PA I'd want to provide phantom power to ensure I was in control. The last thing you need in a room full of punters is to lose key mics mid gig just because the recording rig is having a bad day!

[Mike Stranks]

Thanks all for your suggestions!. I think I´ll go for the Studiospares then.
Mike, regarding "splitters protocol", what are the pros and cons of doing it one way vs. the other?. It´s not that I´m doing lots of live gigs, and when I do I will probably be taking care of both recording and live sound, but I´d like to be aware of potential pitfalls should the case arrive.

Hugh's covered it I think.

The key thing is consistency and planning:

- Be sure that it's mutually agreed who will provide phantom;
- Make sure one system is using ALL buffered or ALL direct - no mix 'n' match;
- When working in new/occasional venues who have a sound-system, contact them ahead of time so that any queries or concerns are dealt with well before the gig-day and you're expected - and welcomed - when you arrive.

[manwilde]

Well, perfectly clear for me now, makes a lot of sense. As usual here.
Thank you very much!

[MarkPAman]

It's the transformer that blocks phantom. Just relying on the ground lift wouldn't work because the phantom supply's ground reference would find it's way back to the other console via the mains and so the mic lines would still be biased to somewhere around 48V regardless of a lift in the audio cable screen ground.

Ahh - really don't know why I didn't work that out

As for who provides the phantom power... the usual convention in professional circles is for the FOH system to provide phantom power to split mics since it is their gig to control...

But remembering that (especially in these days of IEMs) there are sometimes mics on stage to pick up audience, or something playing click a track, which may well still use the stage splitter box, but not be patched at FOH at all to avoid accidentally turning them on. The same could apply to mics intended only for recording.

[Aptorian]

I do this in different ways depending on my role.

Most commonly I will be doing both live sound and recording, In this case I will take a USB feed from my mixer and take multi tracks from that. I feel this is safe because the only point of failure here is the mixer and if the mixer fails it's a show stop anyway. I will occasionally be doing this at work in which case there will be a dante network that I'll tie into.

If I'm recording and not mixing live I would probably try to go down the splitter route if it was possible. However if the gig at hand is running over a dante network I'll probably try and tap into that if possible and there's the space for any extra mics I need.

When I'm running the live sound but not the recording I'll work with what the recording engineer needs but the last time I did this it was using my SQ6. I used the tie line feature to give the recording engineer an exact copy of whatever came into the desk.