Gear for classical music

[guttenor]

Could someone please recommend a couple of good mics for recording classical music, mostly chamber music, songs, organ music and piano music. I have a Zoom F6 in my possession. I compose quite a lot of music and this is mainly the music I'm interested in recording. And, yes, I want to reach a wide classical audience, so the sound quality needs to be excellent. I plan to upload my music to Spotify among other places. Bare in mind, I will not be able to spend a huge amount of money. Is a pair of Omni mics the recommended mics in this case?

Best regards
Gustav

[forumuser840717]

Budget?

Bearing in mind that you'll probably want a resonably tall and stable stand, maybe a stereo bar, a couple of decent (Rycote Invision) shockmounts and, assuming that you might want to record live sometimes, some nice long cables (or one long stereo cable for ease/speed of rigging) so you don't have to leave your recorder clamped to the mic stand where some light fingered audience member or other passing herbert might pinch it.

So long as you don't buy really awful mics, sound quality is likely to be more a question of where you perform the music and where you put the mics rather than the actual mics themselves. Pick the right venue for the performance and style of music and put the right kind of mics in the right place and surprisingly good results are possible with even a pretty modest pair of mics. Better mics just open up a few more options and make life a little easier.

Omnis are great if you have the kind of performers and venues that let you make full use of them but they can be limiting if the performance or room are less than excellent.

If the budget will run to it, maybe consider a modular mic system (with interchangeable capsules) or mics with switchable polar patterns, as the latter will give you more options in terms of recording techniques and mic posiitioning and the former can give you the option of expanding the setup later with additional capsules to achive the same increase in your options.

[guttenor]

Ive already got a couple of stands. My budget will probably be around 1200€ per mic. By the way Ive also got a couple of low budget cardioid mics (akg 535 Eb) if these would be beneficial in addition to the mics I plan to purchase.

[guttenor]

Im mean a Zoom F6 have six i inputs for mics, so if Ive got four mics I though it could possibly be advantageous To use all four of them.

[Arpangel]

Ive already got a couple of stands. My budget will probably be around 1200€ per mic. By the way Ive also got a couple of low budget cardioid mics (akg 535 Eb) if these would be beneficial in addition to the mics I plan to purchase.

You could use the AKG's as spot mic's, if you need them.
If you could stretch your budget a bit, I always recommend the Sennheiser MKH series, great mic's and very versatile. You could look out for secondhand ones, companies like Pink Noise sometimes have used ones.

[Mike Stranks]

Yes; I'd almost always use a pair of spaced omnis for this type of recording.

Check-out the Line-Audio OM1 (omni) and CM4 (wide cardioid) mics. (Regard the CM4 as an omni, but with an attenuated pickup to the rear - great where you want to reduce audience noise a bit while retaining most of the benefits of an omni.)

Incredible value for money and superb for classical music. Not hyped or tweaked at all. Small, black and discrete too!

Available here:

https://www.nohypeaudio.com/lineaudioproducts.htm

and here:

https://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk/brand-line-audio.html

Recommended without reservation.

And as far as stands go, because they're so light the Line-Audios are more more than secure atop these extenders:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/km_2000530055.htm

Not, of course, as boom extenders! only on 'vertical' stands. They give added height while being slim and inconspicuous. Again, thoroughly recommended!

[John Willett]

I specialise in classical recording.

At that price bracket you could (just about) get a stereo set of both omni and cardioid mics.

EG: Gefell M300 / M320 or Neumann KM184 / KM183 - a pair of each would cover most things you can do with classical. Schoeps, Sennheiser and DPA are also excellent but, I think, come above budget.

EG: ORTF or XY cardioid pair / spaced omnis (excelelnt for solo piano or organ) or a "phased array" of an ORTF pair with omni outriggers spaced at about 60cm.

The Line Audio mics mentioned are excellent and punch well above their weight at a pretty low price.

The Sennheiser MKH series are excellent (and I have many of these myself) but are higher than budget.

[rggillespie]

I can give a recommendation for the Rode TF5 cardioid pair, and it seems to be in your price range. I've found them to be excellent with everything I've put in front them. Though my experience is not wide as others on this forum, particularly with classical recording demands. The various reviews outline the Tony Faulkner connection in their development. Rode themselves have retailers on their website, and I found the cheapest price there, a pair in a sale. Worth putting on your shortlist perhaps?

[Arpangel]

The OP mentioned organ music, maybe omni's would be a better choice also for choirs, if I’m right, generally, the bass seems to be more extended with omni's, important for organ music.

[soundslikewillem]

I specialise in classical recording.

At that price bracket you could (just about) get a stereo set of both omni and cardioid mics.

EG: Gefell M300 / M320 or Neumann KM184 / KM183 - a pair of each would cover most things you can do with classical. Schoeps, Sennheiser and DPA are also excellent but, I think, come above budget.

EG: ORTF or XY cardioid pair / spaced omnis (excelelnt for solo piano or organ) or a "phased array" of an ORTF pair with omni outriggers spaced at about 60cm.

The Line Audio mics mentioned are excellent and punch well above their weight at a pretty low price.

The Sennheiser MKH series are excellent (and I have many of these myself) but are higher than budget.

I totally agree and would like to add a pair of Sony C100's as a good microphone choice since their switchable polar pattern gives you already the omni and cardioid perspective in one microphone. They are large diaphragm microphones and their stereo imaging is more diffuse and less exact than a small diaphragm microphone but I often find that more musical sounding.
Their recessed lower mid range helps a lot when close mic'ing acoustic instruments and their smooth sensitive and natural high end is very well suited for distant microphone placement. I usually don't use any eq with them at mixdown and leave the recording as is.
Oh , and don't focus on it's high noise floor in the specifications when you check them out. In practice you won't have any problems with that.

[John Willett]

The OP mentioned organ music, maybe omni's would be a better choice also for choirs, if I’m right, generally, the bass seems to be more extended with omni's, important for organ music.

Yes - cardioid and other directional mics tend to start rolling off the bass at about 50 or 60Hz. An omni is flat down to at least 20Hz and good ones can go much lower.

The lowest fundamental on a pipe organ is 16Hz.

[Nazard]

The lowest fundamental on a pipe organ is 16Hz.

True, for a 32 foot pedal stop. If the 32 foot stop is the only 32 foot in the pedal division, it is likely to be a 'resultant bass' stop, which is the mixing product of two physically shorter pipes, a fifth apart.

When it becomes interesting is when you have 'true' 32 foot stops and the composer mixes them in fifths! For example, years ago I was practising for a concert and had the pedal artillery out, 32 foot diapasons and a 32 foot reed bombarde. The work by Jean Langlais, finished on full organ, playing two pedal notes, a fifth apart, simultaneously, for the final few bars. The resultant harmonics caused a coach driver, parked outside, to come in, shout from down below the organ loft, and complain that I was shaking the windows out of his coach!

[John Willett]

.... years ago I was practising for a concert and had the pedal artillery out, 32 foot diapasons and a 32 foot reed bombarde. The work by Jean Langlais, finished on full organ, playing two pedal notes, a fifth apart, simultaneously, for the final few bars. The resultant harmonics caused a coach driver, parked outside, to come in, shout from down below the organ loft, and complain that I was shaking the windows out of his coach!

He shouldn't have parked there then

[guttenor]

I realise it's been four years since the last post in this thread. Well, better late than never i suppose. I've decided to buy the Neumann km183 omnis. Thank you for this advice John Willett. I already have access to the km184 cardioids.
I just ordered the book 'Classical recording: a practical guide in the Decca tradition' and will study it.
A question: How would you mic a piece for pipeorgan and flute (I've composed such a piece) using these four mics? Maybe use the omnis as as a stereo pair quite close to the organ. And one of the cardioid as a spot mic close to the flute?

[guttenor]

Or, maybe I should make it simple and place the flute close to the organ and then only use the omnis?

[Hugh Robjohns]

There are many options open to you, depending on the performance balance of the two instruments and the acoustics of the venue.

For example, you could use all four as a main array in an ORTF+omni outriggers arrangement, either a on one bar, or with one pair in front/behind the other as documented in that book.

Or you could use the omnis as a main pair or organ focus, with the cardioids as a flute focus.... or vice versa.

Or any other variation that delivers the sound balance you want.

Personally, I wouldn't use a mono spot on the flute if you can avoid it, though. The flute will tend to sound a bit 'bolted on'.

[soundslikewillem]

Chapter 14 of 'classical Recording, A practical guide in the Decca tradition' is all about recording the organ. Great book!

I had one experience recording pipe organ and flute in a church. The flute player joined the organist on the balcony and I recorded it as a whole, as part of the organ. I didn't use any separate microphone for the flute player.

[guttenor]

ORTF+omni outriggers sound like a suitable arrangement. What do you mean with the cardioids as a flute focus? You mean I should separate the flute from the organ and record it with a stereo pair (instead of one spot mic)?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I said it all above.... everything depends on:

A) the performance balance between flautist and organ. If that's good and consistent you can record with a single array. If not, you'll need to arrange individual control of organ and flute so you can optimise the balance.

B) the venue acoustics. This will determine where a main array could be for the optimum balance... and whether the recording is practical on a single array or if you need individual control.

...but if you do need extra control over the flute level, I'd strongly encourage the use of a stereo pair rather than a mono spot.

Since no one here knows what the venue sounds like, what the organ /flute balance is like, or where the flautist is located we can't give specific advice, just suggest some possible options that would be worth considering when you're rigging for the gig.

[guttenor]

I understood most of what you wrote the first time. I just figured that it's better to record solo instruments (other than piano and organ and couple of others) with one spot mic instead of a close pair, because the stereo image is so narrow.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Mono spots were the norm in the 60s, 70s and 80s... but its pretty rare not to use stereo spots now. Needless to say, the two approaches sound quite different. Much depends on the balance, of course, but mono spots can sound 'bolted-on', as I said, and narrow the sound stage. The stereo spot, if done well, doesn't suffer from those problems, and also maintains a natural sense of scale and location.

But try both and see what you prefer...

[guttenor]

Thanks for the explanation. Well, I guess I could use a stereo configuration with a narrow stereo image when I record solo instruments such as the flute.

[Arpangel]

Thanks for the explanation. Well, I guess I could use a stereo configuration with a narrow stereo image when I record solo instruments such as the flute.

M+S will give you the option to vary the stereo width later.

[tacitus]

I’ve just recorded a live concert with my F6, using a pair of AT4022s on a tall stand and a pair of Samson boundary mikes on the floor (all omnis). The latter were just a last-minute thought in case any of the 38 instruments the 4 players were using came out better than with the ATs.

As it happened, everything came out fine on the AT mikes, which were 3.1m up and about 550mm apart, although I liked the sound of crumhorns a bit better on the boundary mikes. As has been pointed out, none of these mikes is in the top league but I was recording in a nice acoustic and while the players had this huge array of sounds, they were pretty well self-balanced. Something you can’t rely on for a flute and organ combo …

Whether or not I’ll ever work my way up to the likes of MKH8020s or KM183s, I have all the “usual suspects” from the budget end, Oktava 012s, the ATs I mentioned already, various Line Audio options, Rode NT55s, sE8 omnis and a shed load of general mikes from sound reinforcement days. I’m always keen to hear what a single pair of mikes can achieve, especially with smaller ensembles, and with the F6, it’s dead easy to test an extra pair for comparison. I usually find in editing that my skill, or lack of it, makes more difference.

One thing I have found is that whatever setup you envisage, there’ll be someone out there who strongly believes it’s the only way to go, and as often as not, naysayers who strongly disagree. My solution is to take the best advice you can (this forum and the Decca recording book are both very good, even when they have slightly different viewpoints) and then get out there and try to find what works for you and the gigs you record.

The F6 and similar devices encourage experimenting so with extra pairs or spots up you can fiddle later to see what you got and how it compared with your normal rig.

Looking back 20 years or so to my first efforts, I had 2 mikes, one big stand and 2 track recording, so positioning was the big beast in my mike locker! Getting something recorded is a major part of one’s success …

[guttenor]

Thanks for the explanation. Well, I guess I could use a stereo configuration with a narrow stereo image when I record solo instruments such as the flute.

M+S will give you the option to vary the stereo width later.

Thanks for the advice. I do have a Zoom H6 the MS mic capsule you can attach to it. While obviously not as good as the Neumanns I actually like the sound. I suppose I could try using that one. Than, in effect, I have six mics to use however I like.