Your opinon on Studio Monitors with Auto Standby function that can't be turned off

[Honch]

Hi all!

I used the search function to try to find something about this, but I have yet to find anything on it.

When lookin for Fluid Audios CX7 coax speakers, they told me that due to EU regulations all consumer electronics (since when are studio monitors "consumer"?) must sooner or later be equipped with that feature. I e that the speaker goes into standby mode after say 20 minutes with no signal present. And the most important thing, this feature can't be bypassed, turned off.

I have yet to find any EU regulation document about it, other than that it's recommended.

However, on the "demarcation" side, depending on which ground one stands, I can find both online reviews of, say, studio monitors Focal Shape 65 that lists Auto Standby as a negative and drawback while others actually puts this as a positive thing. On the plus side. Others don't bring it up at all.

Which beats me.

So, does this bother you, you don't care, or is it a positive thing, or just a negative thing?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Anything that saves power when users are too lazy to switch things off has to be a good thing in my book!

I've reviewed quite a few (pro) active speakers with an auto shut-down function, and I've not had any issues with them. They shut down after a period with no input signal, and they wake up in milliseconds when there is a signal...

However, in my limited practical experience I've found that they can be prone to false power-ups if there is noise on the input lines (eg from interference or poor grounding arrangements), and false power-downs if the source gain structuring is poor.

At Robjohns Manor, all of my active speakers are switched on and off at the mains...

[Mike Stranks]

I have KRK V series monitors which are on auto-power all the time - they're never switched-off in the conventional sense.

I've had them for about 6 years I guess; I've never had one instance of random switching.

[Honch]

Anything that saves power when users are too lazy to switch things off has to be a good thing in my book!

I've reviewed quite a few (pro) active speakers with an auto shut-down function, and I've not had any issues with them. They shut down after a period with no input signal, and they wake up in milliseconds when there is a signal...

However, in my limited practical experience I've found that they can be prone to false power-ups if there is noise on the input lines (eg from interference or poor grounding arrangements), and false power-downs if the source gain structuring is poor.
.

SOS own Phil Ward begs to differ!

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pioneer-rm-07

"The last remaining rear-panel feature is an auto-standby switch. When ‘on’, the RM-07 switches to standby mode after it’s been silent for a while, and switches back on automatically when it detects an input signal. I used the feature for a while but soon switched it off — I found it sometimes frustratingly slow to switch on."

Now, this monitor was really equipped with a "turn-off-standby-function" because it turned out more a nuisance than benefit.

You see, see for yourself, all of your gear is turned on at the mains. I see that too. There's nothing that turns off automatically there. I view ALL of my board/monitors/computers as one source of current draw, not the internal parts of it. They think it's like a computer running on rechargable batteries. To save current. You basically don't It's like a TV that turns off whenever there's nobody in front of it.

I can very well understand auto power off, for heat reasons, when something becomes to warm but that is rather a fuse relay, for safety reasons, so it won't catch fire.

Now the thing was that some reviewers puts this as a "con" only.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

My take on it all is the amount of saving energy is so subtle that it is neglible. I would even think like that the initial start up spike or spark from going from idle mode to active mode is more than leaving it on. They did this same thing with cars that "stops" at a traffic light, and have no engine running for 30 seconds. Then they "auto-start" and you hear the engine turn on just as if they'd turn the ignition key. They have found absolutely no changes in emission or gas saving at all. But here I think it's totally moot, and futile.

I have not heard of anyone saving on their electric bills, thanks to auto standby on their studio monitors.

If there should be an auto-standby it would include all the rest too. Computers, mixers, keyboards, guitar amps (especially tube ones, and class A amps) all at the same time.

[Honch]

https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-bes ... r-speakers

listed auto-standby as a con.

[Logarhythm]

SOS own Phil Ward begs to differ!

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pioneer-rm-07

"The last remaining rear-panel feature is an auto-standby switch. When ‘on’, the RM-07 switches to standby mode after it’s been silent for a while, and switches back on automatically when it detects an input signal. I used the feature for a while but soon switched it off — I found it sometimes frustratingly slow to switch on."

Seems to me to be a small gripe concerning the specific implementation in those monitors, rather than a general observation about all auto-standby functions?
It might be the case that it's a feature that you'd get used to in time anyway. FWIW I use passive monitors and there is a very noticeable delay firing up the amp that powers those...

My take on it all is the amount of saving energy is so subtle that it is neglible. I would even think like that the initial start up spike or spark from going from idle mode to active mode is more than leaving it on. They did this same thing with cars that "stops" at a traffic light, and have no engine running for 30 seconds. Then they "auto-start" and you hear the engine turn on just as if they'd turn the ignition key. They have found absolutely no changes in emission or gas saving at all. But here I think it's totally moot, and futile.

I'm not entirely sure that this is still the case?
I recall being told that starting the engine used about the same amount of fuel as idling for 15 mins, but that was back in the 1980s (and didn't cite any peer-reviewed sources ) - it's a very different question to modern engines designed specifically around this function. The Society of Automotive Engineers seems to be of the opinion that it does save fuel, and they seem well-placed to have a good understanding of the actual mechanics/thermodynamics behind the principles

(I'm not sure the analogy translates all that well to electronics either, FWIW)

I have not heard of anyone saving on their electric bills, thanks to auto standby on their studio monitors.

If there should be an auto-standby it would include all the rest too. Computers, mixers, keyboards, guitar amps (especially tube ones, and class A amps) all at the same time.

I haven't heard of anyone actually measuring the effect of auto-standby on their electricity bill specifically in relation to monitors either
And lots of computers do exactly this - power management settings allow you to tailor when they go into "sleep" mode, turn of the screen etc. I dread to think how much (more) energy would be wasted in offices if they didn't do this!

In any case, just because we don't notice a few pence on our own electricity bill it doesn't mean that lots of devices needless drawing a few Watts that could be reduced via standby don't add up to a potentially useful saving in the overall power consumption of a society

I have to say I'm with Hugh on this - it certainly wouldn't put me off a pair of monitors.

[al_diablo]

I have KRK and genelec monitors and have had no problem with the auto standby on either.

I can't really understand why anyone would have a strong negative opinion about it at all actually

My computers and some of my hardware units have similar features. I think it would be quite nice if everything had a power saving mode.

[Hugh Robjohns]

SOS own Phil Ward begs to differ!

He was commenting on the implementation of the facility in one specific monitor design, not condemning the concept as a whole!

You see, see for yourself, all of your gear is turned on at the mains. I see that too. There's nothing that turns off automatically there.

Most laptops do... and most computer display screens.

It's like a TV that turns off whenever there's nobody in front of it.

Oh yes... all the modern ones do that too...

My take on it all is the amount of saving energy is so subtle that it is neglible.

In one household, possibly. Across a city, a country, or the world it's far from negligible.

I would even think like that the initial start up spike or spark from going from idle mode to active mode is more than leaving it on.

Is that based on your extensive knowledge and experience as a designer of professional and consumer electronics, or just the story you've invented to make yourself feel better?

If there should be an auto-standby it would include all the rest too. Computers, mixers, keyboards, guitar amps (especially tube ones, and class A amps) all at the same time.

Be careful what you wish for!

[Watchmaker]

Having worked in the electric utility business for seven and a half years, at least in America, I can say that there is a large public interest lobby that presses the perspective that "ghost" or "phantom" loads, in aggregate, place a reducible demand load on the generation side and the idea is to alleviate peak load constraints on aging infrastructure. Some engineers in the US argue that having the higher baseline load in off-peak is better because it keeps turbines spinning which is better than having them spin down completely. Remember, generators have to spool up and down to respond to demand changes and the more dramatic they are, they greater the risk of low supply conditions when the instantly available voltage is lower than demand, so if you have to have your turbines shedding a small amount of load across the network, that may actually be more efficient that taking turbines on and off line rapidly.

While reducing baseline consumption is a worthy goal, the impact on specific pieces of gear are going to vary widely. That glowing switch on your power strip, the little LED on the faceplate of your speaker, etc. each draw a bit of current and when you multiply that by every household, it adds up. Because it is unrealistic to think that humans are trainable for any purpose other than self-interest, the deciders have been convinced by their lobbying brethren to remove one more opportunity for waste.

I'm a tepid supporter of this notion, as there are very good reasons to re-think the entire electric energy generation and distribution model in light of things learned since the early 20th century when the vast majority of the fundamental infrastructure engineering was implemented.

My concern is really in implementation. One more feature means one more possible point of failure. Personally, I defeat anything auto on or off because I want granular control. Like Hugh, I switch off at the mains. Even my guitar pedal board and studio lights are switched off at the mains every night when I lock up.

But there is no way - and who wants to live in such a world anyway - that the population at large can be trained to care about such things.

[Folderol]

There is 'no switch on spike' when returning from standby. The main filter caps remain fully charged (with infinitesimal leakage current) all through the standby period. It is the switching transistor circuit that goes dormant. Indeed, this potentially extends the life of the kit, as there are far fewer real switch on surge events.

There is just a very low demand monitoring circuit that watches for input signal.

[Honch]

see what I did there. I sparked an interesting topic of debate.

I was more interested in that the reviews (some) actually labeled it as a con (negative) some as positive (plus), and I even see those who doesn't bring it up at all or think it is of totally insignificance.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I was more interested in that the reviews (some) actually labeled it as a con (negative)...

I think Paul listed it as a con in that specific review because that particularly speaker was slow to respond and didn't behave as he expected it to. It wasn't a condemnation of the facility per se.

I even see those who doesn't bring it up at all or think it is of totally insignificance.

I'm in the latter camp. It is an increasingly common facility, so other thahn mentioning its presence I'd only comment further upon it if it worked particularly poorly (or particularly well!)

[Honch]

I would even think like that the initial start up spike or spark from going from idle mode to active mode is more than leaving it on.

Is that based on your extensive knowledge and experience as a designer of professional and consumer electronics, or just the story you've invented to make yourself feel better?

No I did actually measured it, which was easily done, on another friends of mines autopowered off studio monitors. On the contrary, we made a bet. He bought them JUST for that apart from sounding great of course. For whatever bizarre rationale behind it. He's a phD in electrical engineering and acoustics and works for a cell phone company that develops mics, and sound part of cell phones. All of them, and then licenses them out. Not specific brand but subcontractor. He knows stuff. The units examined was Tannoy GOLD 7" actives. The new ones. NOTE : With SELECTABLE automatic standby mode.

He brought home meticulous measure equipment, not your regular voltmeter, and we measure the power grid wire to one speaker, with the standby function activated. It read in mA or A or microAmpere if you'd want to. We found no difference in three digit accuracy on the stream when the moniotors actually were in standby mode. I mean only then connected. There was absolutely no difference in "downstream" actually, the current reaching it. So, when we moved the signal to actually produce som signal, it woke up, and a very very slight surge was detected, but it still was within mA spike. Measurable though. How long a monitor should be active in order to make up for that, so it becomes an even wash, we didn't test. We just found a spike, no matter how slight, on this particular item.

I have very well slightly more understanding if it was a lightweight switching high powered amp or a complete fully compliant Class A toroid transformer amp active monitor. For generating excessive heat. However, it was SELECTABLE. It wasn't measurable with those things we had as a measurement or with these specific speakers. So for conserving energy it is a waste or a "hyped" environmental thing only. But in this select case, there must have been something to it whenever they add "selectable" option, that one can use it a a whim, or chose not to.

[Honch]

I was more interested in that the reviews (some) actually labeled it as a con (negative)...

I think Paul listed it as a con in that specific review because that particularly speaker was slow to respond and didn't behave as he expected it to. It wasn't a condemnation of the facility per se.

No, Paul did, but the other one at Music Radar, just listed it as a negative con, without mention it in the review. I e neither that it worked properly nor was a flawed designed one.

[Honch]

Here's another one on those Tannoys.

https://bandrecording.at/artikel/tannoy-gold-8-review/

"Above the Inputs is an Auto-Standby switch which can be toggled on. This engages a mode that will shut down the speakers when no audio is being played back. In this case the power LED at the front panel will turn red. The speakers will automatically turn back on when playing music. This takes about 4,5 seconds, so I don’t recommend it when actively working on a mix."

At least, this one is selectable, and may turn out an unnecessary inclusion since most people will then (if above start up in 4,5 seconds) use it in non-standby mode.

[Honch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hgZ_2kwojY

This guy admits that it has both pros and cons. He's so out of it. His computer monitor does not go into standby mode, it runs as much as power, but he says so "hey you see my monitor just went into power saving mode. It goes into "screen saver" mode instead, to avoid burn ins. But he doesn't get that.

Is there any burn in on speakers, when they are idle for more than 30 minutes?

[Mike Stranks]

What's going on here?

The O/P posed a 'Whaddya think? Good or bad?' question related to auto-power-off in speakers in general and has received various responses , including several in the 'never been a problem for me' category.

Now he seems on a mission to show that it's a 'bad' - or at least problematic - thing. Why?

If he was of the opinion that is is 'bad' then why not say so up front and provide supporting evidence. I just don't get what this is all about.

[Hugh Robjohns]

No I did actually measured it...

Sorry... I'm really struggling to understand what it was you were measuring and what your tests were supposedly showing...

[Hugh Robjohns]

...but the other one at Music Radar, just listed it as a negative con, without mention it in the review.

Sorry ... can't really comment on other people's reviews. As a matter of policy, we only list something in the Pro/Con section if it has been fully explained and discussed in the main review text.

I can obviously appreciate that you're not keen on auto-standby facilities in active speakers, and that's your prerogative. But I think you'll find this kind of feature becomes increasingly common with new designs.

Of course, many active speakers intended for the professional market allow the auto-standby function to be to disabled simply because there are specific applications where auto-standby is unhelpful, and the user can be considered responsible enough to power-down properly when the speaker is no longer required.

It's interesting and encouraging that several people have reported no problems with their own auto-standby speakers, so while I'm sure that there have been some issues with a few specific designs, or with ageing speakers, it seems the system can work as intended.

[Honch]

If he was of the opinion that is is 'bad' then why not say so up front and provide supporting evidence. I just don't get what this is all about.

No, that what I think is problematic, is that some reviewers out there (maybe not SOS) as I pointed out with Music Radar lists this particular Speaker as a negative that it has not a selectable automatic standby function. I noticed this. And I noted that no or very few lists this as a pro or con, as it is of important thing that it is there or not.

My negative views on them, has nothing to do with that what I wonder whether other thinks that this is an important thing to be listed. As we now know for sure, there are different opinions, and either

a) people don't care, not important, to list it in reviews
b) people care, but don't think it's important to mention in reviews at all
c) people care, and wants it stated in all reviews regardless of whether they like it or not

I for one, have no objection if it exists but sure wants to know in any review regardless of whether I liked it or not.

JBL has a cunning trick to turn it off, but it isn't readily selecatable. I e a little extra mile to walk, so one doesn't think it's just a flick of a switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_05foHkQ2Y

That I'm not particularly fond of it, well, it could just be the other way around too, but I still want it stated in reviews. And of course, whether it is selectable or not. We've now seen that some reviewers (Music Radar) list it as a CON, while I can very much think that some other reviewer of repute would list it as a PRO (review of the exact same monitor), and yet some other didn't even bother to mention it at all.

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And come on, give me a break will you all, about that small savings adds up to energy savings throughout the world. Globally. Like studio monitors should be something of a household item throughout the world, like domestic hi-fi speakers in the living room. The total number of them are so small, that strangling the current on them after 20 minutes doesn't matter at all, either way.

Besides all this, point me to any EU directive which demands this on new products. I e that one can get fined (the company) if you don't include it.

The only thing I've found is this, and it's all about consumer electrical equipment, not professional equipment.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 32008R1275

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[Hugh Robjohns]

No, that what I think is problematic, is that .... no or very few lists this as a pro or con, as it is of important thing that it is there or not.

Ah. Okay. You don't like inconsistency in reviews. Fair enough. Best to stick with a reputable and reliable source of information, like SOS then!

[Sam Spoons]

I suppose if people are run the habit of leaving them powered up 24/7 then the 'standby' time could be 75% or more, if you are in the habit of switching them off when you finish a session the the energy saving would be insignificant. In a domestic environment speakers may well be left switched on and a second or two delay before they come back to life is no more than the most minor inconvenience, in that case the benefits of 'auto standby' are indisputable. In a professional situation that delay would disrupt the workflow in a negative way and would be undesirable.

[Drew Stephenson]

I leave my Neumanns on auto-standby. They take about 5 seconds to re-start, but if I've not been using them for long enough that they've gone into standby then that extra 5 seconds just isn't an issue.

[Martin Walker]

A vaguely related issue happened to me the other day - I'd been watching a series on Netflix, and then went into the studio to make some music.

When I returned several hours later, Netflix had been cycling through clips of random series in an effort to get me actively watching something else. Not a problem at all to me, except that I learned the following day that me actively remaining on my shared Netflix account had prevented a colleague being able to log in.

In future I shall sign off from Netflix when I stop viewing

Sometimes auto switch off is helpful

Martin

[Nites]

The way stand by mode is implemented on Kali Audio speakers is annoying. They tend to switch off when listening at low volume levels. And they won't turn on unless you feed them a healthy single level by turning up the monitor controller.