Why would Kurzweil have moved 'forward' by removing digital outputs on their keyboards?

[Sequencer]

I can't figure this out - the Kurzweil PC3 series (from roughly 2010) came with spdif digital out, capable of running up to the highest res ..... both the new PC4 (2020) and the Forte - no more digital out. For a company that is way big on sound quality why would they have done that?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Probably because their customer surveys suggested I wasn't considered an important or popular feature.

[Sequencer]

That must be it, of course, but I still don't get it - for a premium, fully digital, instrument - to move away from spdif - just odd.

[muzines]

Aren't most people using those as live/gig keyboards though? That's my perception (though I may well be wrong on that).

Digital outs are not really used that much for gigging - it's a small, fiddly connector/cable, plus you have clocking issues - far easier for most people to whack in some balanced cables with jacks/XLR etc - so maybe that's a contributory factor as to where Kurz see the majority of use cases..?

[The Elf]

Digital outs aren't actually very useful.

You either have to get a clock *into* the sending device, or lock the receiving device to the sender. Often senders wouldn't have a digital input to receive a clock and the receiver is probably better self-clocked.

As soon as you have more than one device with a digital output then these problems multiply and the picture begins to look very messy.

So I don't find it surprising that the world doesn't care about digital outputs.

[Sequencer]

Yeh, I totally get the live/gig argument - the analog outs would totally be the way to go there (and they have always been balanced outs)

- it's just that so much is made of the massively impressive synthesis capabilities in these machines - and yet it seems like they are more used as high-end Rompler Grand Pianos really

Does anyone actually do any VAST programming - or is it all (mostly) turned off and playing back multisamples?

[Dave B]

The Forte is actually a very strange - and slightly schizoid - beast. I love mine to bits for so many reasons, but it was a bit of a "fling it at the wall and see what sticks" kind of unit when it launched. It was originally more of a stage piano. Then live keyboard. Now a full fat workstation again. And some of the specs are stunning.

(I think it's more like a development platform that they release tbh)

And that is the problem - as noted in other threads, manufacturers need to differentiate between instruments. The PC4 is now deemed a lesser unit than a Forte so it has a plastic case, no aftertouch and a wall wart. As the Forte doesn't have a digital output, it seems that the PC4 won't either. Hey ho.

Oh - and yes, VAST programming is alive and well. And all those multisamples are a core part of the architecture.

[zenguitar]

It's worth bearing in mind that S/PDIF stands for Sony/Phillips Digital Interface and it dates back to the birth of the CD player in the 80's.

Was it ever really designed for musical instruments and recording studios? I very much doubt it. However, as it was something that appeared on mass market hi-fi equipment I expect it was very cheap when mass produced. So very easy for instrument and studio manufacturers to leap on the digital bandwagon at little cost.

Andy

[Agharta]

It's also disappearing in consumer A/V devices due to the ubiquity of HDMI.
Analogue outputs are also disappearing in some consumer devices just leaving HDMI.
It keeps the cost down.

[4TrackMadman]

Could it be that they've improved the D/A converters and don't want to risk the changes in sonic quality when having another signal route that doesn't use them and bypasses that part of the chain?

Or probably the more likely explanation is that they've decided to cheapen manufacturing costs.

[Martin Walker]

Digital outs aren't actually very useful.

You either have to get a clock *into* the sending device, or lock the receiving device to the sender. Often senders wouldn't have a digital input to receive a clock and the receiver is probably better self-clocked.

As soon as you have more than one device with a digital output then these problems multiply and the picture begins to look very messy.

So I don't find it surprising that the world doesn't care about digital outputs.

+1 to this explanation by The Elf.

I remember a time many years ago when the concept of digital outputs on keyboards/synths seemed rather exciting, but that was before I realised that the majority of such keyboards only had a digital out, so every other digital device in your studio would have to be locked to that clock.

As digital converters got better and better, the thought of relying on a keyboard clock to sync all your digital gear together started to feel less appealing.

Martin

[Eddy Deegan]

I was very into the idea of 'pristine' digital outputs for some time between 10 and 20 years ago. I still have an M-Audio S/PDIF patchbay from that era.

It turns out it's not needed. Analogue outputs sound absolutely fine, are less fiddly to set up and ubiquitous. I never discerned any benefit from using the S/P DIF outputs on anything from that time.

For Hi-Fi it make sense especially when transferring recordings from one place to another. For synths, not so much.

[ManFromGlass]

I've been cleaning out old boxes of cables and in the bottom of one I found an old black burst generator (I think that's what it's called). I remember needing it to sync 2 Yamaha CBXd-5 units to Logic back in the day. I recall installing it the first time and suddenly sync was rock solid and not hit or miss.
and now what do I do with the generator? I hate throwing gear into the landfill.

[4TrackMadman]

There are still a few SPDIF bespoke preamps though that might be fun to run this through.
Personally I haven't seen the need either, but for example on my 2012 interface by Presonus, you could gain 2 channels by going digital, for total of 10 channels. If recording a full band that was a definite plus as it gave me 2 more channels.

[BigRedX]

The only advantage I can see with having digital outputs nowadays is that you can reduce latency if you have a lot of digital devices in the signal chain as each one wouldn't need to add an additional set of AD-DA conversion. However as The Elf has said you then introduce the problem of getting all the devices to lock to a single digital clock, which becomes more trouble than it is worth.

[N i g e l]

Do the Kurzweils have audio over USB instead ?

I think the Montage has extensive USB audio outs as well as monitor input & inputs to the synth engine. Perhaps that is "moving forward".

[Dave B]

No - Kurzweil have shied away from going the audio-over-usb route. They just do midi (at the moment).

But here's the thing - Kurzweil have, for many .. _many_ years offered balanced outputs. I used to gig with two long balanced jack cables into the PA quite happily (I'm a good boy now and use DIs) and the system was silent. Digital audio has its place, but modern Kurzweils seem to be geared towards live use (at which I would say that they excel) and in a lot of live scenarios it is overkill. Give me balanced analogue connections anyday!

[Sequencer]

I get people's comments that 'digital isn't actually that useful' - in terms of having chains and clocks and stuff and live performance.

But that's not really my point - it is useful - the ability to 'print' an exact rendition of anything in the digital world (be it multi-layer photoshop project, or audio bounce/freeze in Logic Pro) is something you do all the time - and expect.

It would make some kind of sense if you could print inside the Kurzweil (ie, resample into RAM) - but it won't do that either.

...it's a bit like if Logic Pro removed all of it's digital bounce options and instead made you route all audio via analog outs on the interface and then back in through analog audio ins to be re-recorded: the results would be fine - but it doesn't do it that way (although it can if you want) because digital has the ability to do 100% perfect printing.

So my point isn't about the universal practicalities of digital audio outs in all situations it's more getting rid of something that is fundamental to digital audio in general (the ability to make perfect copies) .... and on a $5000 instrument (Forte88) that 'does everything'.

[resistorman]

I get people's comments that 'digital isn't actually that useful' - in terms of having chains and clocks and stuff and live performance.

But that's not really my point - it is useful - the ability to 'print' an exact rendition of anything in the digital world (be it multi-layer photoshop project, or audio bounce/freeze in Logic Pro) is something you do all the time - and expect.

I have to say I was really hung up on this idea because I lived through the emergence of digital audio, and some of it was not pretty. All my chains were obsessively digital. But Hugh talked me down out of the tree last year and I’ve been much happier. And besides, you get that “genuine analog warmth” with multiple conversions!

[The Elf]

Yes, at one time I tried to keep all my connections digital, but I came to the conclusion that it really wasn't such a big deal - and that the problem solving far outweighs the benefits.

[N i g e l]

- it is useful - the ability to 'print' an exact rendition of anything in the digital world (be it multi-layer photoshop project, or audio bounce/freeze in Logic Pro) is something you do all the time - and expect

That is valid. some synths even let you record the audio to disk/USB stick.

[Hugh Robjohns]

But that's not really my point - it is useful - the ability to 'print' an exact rendition of anything in the digital world..

But is it really 'useful' in the context of a musical instrument? The chances are you're going to modify the source sound with effects processes anyway. But even if not, the degradation involved in passing through a D-A-D process is so vanishingly small I can guarantee you will not hear it, and you'd be hard-pressed to measure it.

Analogue connections are universal. Balanced analogue connections are interference and ground-loop resistant. And analogue is also sample-rate agnostic.

In a keyboard, digital I/O is a pain from the practical, operational and engineering points of view.

To do a digital output correctly, you need a very high quality internal clock, and the ability to synchronise to an external clock input, and the ability to work at different sample rates... All of which makes the design of the keyboard's digital sound generation a lot more complicated and therefore expensive.

And if you don't provide external clocking and alternative sample rates you compromise the usability of the digital output...

So given that there are no real practical benefits, it's a lot easier just to not bother with a digital output. Spend the money on much more useful balanced analogue outputs instead.

[Martin Walker]

Yes, at one time I tried to keep all my connections digital, but I came to the conclusion that it really wasn't such a big deal - and that the problem solving far outweighs the benefits.

Exactly this

[Sequencer]

Hugh (et al.) -

I totally get all this - that 'instruments' are fine recorded as D-A-D - I certainly could never tell the difference (practically my hearing can't distinguish beyond 256 mp3) - and analog out is the real universal standard.

...but I'm not talking about the PC4 as an 'instrument' - I'm talking about the PC4 as a Digital Audio Workstation .... I realize peoples' thoughts that the Kurzweil's are 'players instruments' - but they are also one of the finest examples of a single box Workstation solution - everything is right there under your fingertips - and that is my use-case, not as an instrument, more as a tactile (muscle memory) replacement for Logic Pro.

- it's just that in that context there is the final part of the DAW functionality missing - namely 'print to file'

So I realize that it's probably not digital outs that I am wanting, it's an extra button in Song Mode that just renders a track as 24/41 (or whatever) and saves it to the flash ram - which would, of course, be a software upgrade.

For a Workstation it just seems like an omission.

The PC3K doesn't have such a 'print to file' function either - but they had left spdif there (and clock in) - so the final print could be done that way.

[Fleer]

...
The PC4 is now deemed a lesser unit than a Forte so it has a plastic case, no aftertouch and a wall wart. As the Forte doesn't have a digital output, it seems that the PC4 won't either. Hey ho.

My PC4 has aftertouch, Dave. That plastic case allows for some easy gigging. Most keyboards, even in higher price ranges, have a plastic case, like Fantom and Montage.
I just love the PC4 to have a good 88-keys action but no MDF-cardboard underneath