Machine Head

[SecretSam]

Dvvv dvvv dvvvvvv
Dvvv dvvv da-dahhhh (flat 5 to IV)
Dvvv dvv dvvvvvvv
Dah dah

(Name that tune ...)

Having resolved pickups, amp and overdrive, my next GAS is for a new set of machine heads.

The local gurus recommend Gotoh, which doesn't narrow it down much because their catalogue is huge.

A couple of questions for you all:

What is a good gear ratio ? Is 1:21 much better than 1:18, and is 1:18 much better than 1:16 ? What is the minimum ratio that I should consider ?

Are the height-adjustable poles reliable ? If I echew the whammy bar, does a locking tuner make much difference ?

Any favourite models (of tuner, I mean, obviously)?

Your collective wisdom will as always, be gratefully received.

[shufflebeat]

What's the problem with the old ones?

(Apart from being old ones [choose your words carefully]).

[SecretSam]

They feel a bit gritty* And they are slightly higher than they should be.

I should explain: this is a strat-a-like that I bought in a junk shop for the equivalent of thirty quid. It seemed to have been bolted together from an old body and a newer neck. The body and bridge are good, and the neck is also good: compound radius and slightly wider than it should be.

After replacing the pickups and electrical hardware, and a good setup, I absolutely love it.

But the tuners are a bit crunchy and the nut could do with an upgrade.

So that's why.

So far, the work done on it cost about 12 times what the guitar did, but it really is worth it. It's the best playing, most resonant strat I have ever had my hands on. And the mojo is beyond accounting.

*Was 'gritty' chosen well enough? Alternatives could be crunchy, intermittently stiff, not very smooth, primitive, uncouth or grinding. Yes I can live with the old ones, but ....

[zenguitar]

First of all, you are considering replacing the tuners for a genuine reason. Well done

Gotoh are highly reputable and, as you have discovered, have a very large range covering every possibility.

Even with notionally similar tuner designs, there are variations in how they are attached, the number and location of mounting screws in particular. So remove one of the old tuners so you can compare it to the detailed drawings of potential replacements to identify the best option. If you haven't already found it, Gotoh have an online pdf catalogue which you can download that has detailed drawings. Here's the link...

https://g-gotoh.com/catalog-download/?lang=en

Height adjustable posts are reliable.

Any of the 3 gear ratios you asked about are fine. 1:16 was traditional in the 50's and 60's, 1:18 is more recent, 1:21 is a more modern option. Higher ratios theoretically offer more "accuracy" at the expense of more time spent winding the string onto the post. My view is that if you have problems tuning accurately, the problem lies somewhere other than the tuner.

Unless you have a very good reason (regularly dive-bomb until the strings are completely loose), a locking tuner is an expensive gimmick that doesn't grip the string as well as a standard non-locking post. Eltham Jones used to have a very clear explanation of the engineering behind this, but I can't find it there at the moment. However, it is worth reading his piece on re-stringing as it does give a little extra info, you can find here...

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/restring/

Oh, and the tune was banned in guitar shops when I was growing up. Smoke on the Water.

Andy

[Drew Stephenson]

As well as Gotoh you could consider Grover and Schaller. Across my guitars I've got a mix of branded and OE tuners and I do find the Grovers and Schallers to be a bit nicer to use.
I don't have any Gotoh's though.

[SecretSam]

Hi Andy

Thanks yet again for the expert advice. That will save me about fifty quid.

(The difference between the 1:16 381 series, and the higher-ratio 510 series, plus fifteen quid off for the lock)

And yes you are right about the tune. Machine Head, side 1, track 1. See what you get if you set off a flare gun near soft furnishings and a rock band.

[SecretSam]

Hi Blinddrew

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I put schallers on a Yamaha bb5000a bass about twenty years ago. It stays pretty much in tune from one week to the next.

The bloke who does guitar teching in these parts has a bit of a downer on them for some reason. Says they aren't as good as they were, etc etc. Well, neither am I, so we don't need to hold that against them.

[Luke W]

As well as Gotoh you could consider Grover and Schaller. Across my guitars I've got a mix of branded and OE tuners and I do find the Grovers and Schallers to be a bit nicer to use.
I don't have any Gotoh's though.

I put together a Thinline Tele a few years back and I'm trying to remember whether I used Gotoh or Grover, it definitely began with G... Either way I get on with them far better than the original ones on my Strat.

I've got Gotohs on my acoustics and certainly have no complaints.

[Dynamic Mike]

Any favourite models (of tuner, I mean, obviously)?

https://tinyurl.com/y3v8qxtn or https://tinyurl.com/y4eojwyq

Pretty, Pretty good & pretty cheap

[SecretSam]

Those are very pretty indeed. The screw holes are in a different place to the ones already there, but that might not be a showstopper.

[shufflebeat]

They feel a bit gritty* And they are slightly higher than they should be.

Yup, perfectly reasonable.

I've used Grover Schaller and Gotoh over the years and all well designed and made. If you were to choose any one of them they would do the job well. I can't say I've got a favourite except the Grovers had an annoying habit of shedding screws if you didn't keep an eye on them.

[adrian_k]

Hi Blinddrew

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I put schallers on a Yamaha bb5000a bass about twenty years ago. It stays pretty much in tune from one week to the next.

The bloke who does guitar teching in these parts has a bit of a downer on them for some reason. Says they aren't as good as they were, etc etc. Well, neither am I, so we don't need to hold that against them.

My brother (professional luthier for 30 years or so) has stopped fitting Schallers, they really are not as good as they were. Gotohs are good and reliable.

[CS70]

Dvvv dvvv dvvvvvv
Dvvv dvvv da-dahhhh (flat 5 to IV)
Dvvv dvv dvvvvvvv
Dah dah

(Name that tune ...)

Strictly with fingers and not a pick.

[Dynamic Mike]

Those are very pretty indeed. The screw holes are in a different place to the ones already there, but that might not be a showstopper.

Only downside to Duesenberg is they don't take debit or credit cards, just PayPal! Stuff is dispatched pretty quickly though.

[Murray B]

I learn so much from the collective wisdom in this place.

Thanks Andy for sharing the link

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rou ... /restring/

It also covered tuning here too and not falling into the trap of trying to make your chords sound perfect but accepting there is a balance and dealing with it... made me think that one as I'll mess with the fine tuning quite a lot to get it sounding as good as it can for the key I'm playing in.

Also all my gigging electric guitars have locking tuners - I've never had any trouble but I might put more of a wrap round the post than I have in the past having read the article.

[zenguitar]

You're very welcome.

Andy

[Sam Spoons]

I learn so much from the collective wisdom in this place.

Thanks Andy for sharing the link

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rou ... /restring/

It also covered tuning here too and not falling into the trap of trying to make your chords sound perfect but accepting there is a balance and dealing with it... made me think that one as I'll mess with the fine tuning quite a lot to get it sounding as good as it can for the key I'm playing in.

Also all my gigging electric guitars have locking tuners - I've never had any trouble but I might put more of a wrap round the post than I have in the past having read the article.

The link seems broken but is this the article? http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/rout_serv/restring/

[Murray B]

Yep that's the one - thank you

[Johnsy]

Sperzels for me.

[Wonks]

Any of the 3 gear ratios you asked about are fine. 1:16 was traditional in the 50's and 60's, 1:18 is more recent, 1:21 is a more modern option. Higher ratios theoretically offer more "accuracy" at the expense of more time spent winding the string onto the post. My view is that if you have problems tuning accurately, the problem lies somewhere other than the tuner.

Between 12:1 and 14:1 was a more typical ratio in the 50s and 60s, going from low to higher priced guitars. 14:1 or 15:1 is still a typical modern tuner ratio on low to medium priced guitars, but the general quality is so much higher than it used to be. Even really cheap enclosed Chinese tuners work well these days (though you do get the odd graunchy tuner - but I've also had that on some high-end Hipshots).

As Zen says here and elsewhere, tuners are rarely the problem. It's almost always the nut and then possibly the bridge saddles are the most likely causes of tuning issues (apart from unwinding ball ends on thin plain strings).

Higher tuner gear ratios allow you to move the string less per turn of the key, so hitting pitch on an electronic tuner within ±1 cent becomes that bit easier, allowing you to creep up to tune without overshooting and then undershooting as much. But even a 12:1 tuner, provided the string has been wound on properly and the gears aren't too worn, will hold the tuning well.

I've fitted quite a few different tuners on guitars recently, and I didn't really have any issues with any of them. I do find that vintage-style Klusons have their post holes lower than I think they should, so it's hard to get more than 1 1/2 turns on a low E (headstock thickness was pretty standard). But even then, tuning stability was still good. Grovers are always very smooth. I changed the height adjustable post + locking tuners (Gotoh I think), on a Fret King for someone and replaced them with staggered height Hipshots, as the HAP tuners, combined with the locking function were just too fiddly for me and kept moving or coming undone. Just trying to be a bit too clever.

But these things are all very personal and for some people, a tuner is a tuner, and for others, if it doesn't feel just right, then it needs to be replaced.

But they are one of the key connection points between the string and the guitar, so its worth doing regular checks and making sure the mounting screws and/or post nut are nice and tight. The headstock vibrates a lot and screws and nuts do come loose. I can guarantee that I will be able to turn the fixing nuts at least a couple of 1/4 turns on my guitars every time I check them. On some guitars I've set up for others, they've never been tightened since bought, and I can get two or three full turns on the nuts.

A lot of people spent time fixating on stop tailpieces being screwed down as close to the body as possible in order to reduce the amplitude of any possible backwards and forwards vibration, but totally ingnore the other end where the tuners are basically loose and the posts can move about by a much much greater amount.

[yaire]

Hi,

One thing I did not see mentioned is the hole size.
I have a tele on which I put Hipshot locking tuners.
These are for the 'vintage' sized holes (being smaller) so I needed to put other Hipshots on it than on my other guitars (I love the look of the open gear locking tuners)

I noticed that some really cheap guitars and Fenders tend to use smaller holes.

So I would suggest to check the hole size before ordering.
You could ream a bigger hole but I personally I am not very good at it.

[Wonks]

You can normally get adapter bushes to fit vintage style tuners in 10mm holes (the Kluson ones look a lot nicer and far more vintage than the Gotoh ones IMO). Some Fenders have slightly larger 10.5mm holes

Modern guitars with no vintage pretensions will almost always have 10mm tuner holes, whilst the vintage reissue style guitars will have the smaller 8.85mm hole size.

You also need to check the vintage tuner post hole size as some have 6mm and others 1/4"/6.35 mm diameter posts.

I've also found that the size variations on tuner posts and bushing holes normally means I have to play about matching bushings to tuners, as the tuners with slightly wider posts won't fit on the bushings with the slightly smaller holes.

But even though you can get the conversion bushings, if you want to try and fit vintage Kluson 6-in-line tuners to a modern Fender (or Fender style) guitar with modern tuners, check the hole centre spacing, which needs to be just right for the vintage tuners to work, as they butt-up against each other and share a common fixing screw between adjoining tuners. very often the spacing is a couple of mm too narrow or too wide. You can file away the edges of the tuners if the spacing is too narrow (but it's fussy work), but too wide is a lot harder to deal with and best forgotten about.

[ef37a]

Old cabinet makers son chipping in here (boom! Boom!)

Re different mounting hole positions? I would in any case plug the existing holes and start afresh.
Use pared down kebab sticks? The ones I buy locally seem a very nice straight grained hardwood, could be Ramin? (matchsticks are cheap, soft pine.)

Dave.

[Wonks]

There is the aesthetic aspect to consider when plugging and redrilling tuner holes, especially if you have a natural finish headstock. Very slight re-arrangement may end up with the bushing rim covering all the plug outline, but the bushing rims aren't that wide. The washers on threaded bushing tuners are a lot wider than the push-in bushings and so can cover up a lot more sins. But if you're fitting those, then you don't need vintage spacing.

I have seen people use plug cutters to cut a suitably sized plug from a similar looking piece of maple (or mahogany) with reasonable success, but it's still hard to hide that round edge.

Dave, I'm not talking about plugging the small 'anti-rotation' screw holes here, (hardwood cocktail sticks generally work well for me here, along with a dab of matching paint to hide them as best as possible) but the actual main tuner holes, so you'd need 10mm or larger diameter dowel. If your kebab sticks are thicker than 10mm, then you must be grilling some pretty hefty chunks of meat!

[ef37a]

As you were Wonks. I am talking about not reusing the tiny fixing screw holes.

I don't do kebabs! I bought the sticks for wife to spear pickled baby beetroot..Horrible stuff!

Dave.