If I was to replace my Ruark Templars with proper monitors?

[AlasdairEaston]

Hi all. I'd love your thoughts about my situation. I've had a set of Ruark Templars that I bought second hand about 17 or 18 years ago. They've been great as hifi speakers, and since I got into this recording and mixing caper they've been my studio monitors. All ok so far, except I've become very aware that they do soften a lot of top-end detail. Perhaps the Ruarks have always been voiced to sweeten and smooth?

So that lack of top-end clarity is a problem with, possibly, no fix.

Then there's the fact that today I noticed the left speaker buzzing occasionally (seemingly triggered by low/mid content) and something about the sound dropping in and out. I've moved the speaker cable to the other pair of posts on the back (the two pairs are joined with a plate) and it seems to have sorted it for the moment...

But it does feel like I've got a decision coming up: I might finally need to buy a proper set of studio monitors. With the Covid rules, trekking round shops is not on so it needs to be an online purchase. The trouble is: how to set my expectations? Where in the range to look? Do I need to spend big or are today's modest studio monitors out-classing those 20 year old Ruark hifi speakers? Would, say, some Rokit RP7 G4's just be a laughable comparison? Some of the Adam models? The 7 or T8V perhaps? Do I really need to be looking (gulp) much further up the ranges? Neumann KH80s, etc?

For info, the music I'm doing is a broad range of styles and does include acoustic stuff, plus synths, orchestral instruments, as well as heavy grooves with bass and drums.

They'll be used as nearfield monitors and the room is a home-studio in a carpeted, coombed ceiling loft conversion with some basic treatment to try to control the low-end.

Any experience and opinions welcome!

Thanks,
Alasdair.

[Mike Stranks]

Hmmm.... monitors... so much is down to personal preference and expectations.

The key thing is usually budget and room.

If you have a small room then going anything above a 5" woofer is just asking for trouble. You'll be getting the bass response of the room all of a doodah with very limited means of controlling it.

I'm in a room 2m x 3m and have good general acoustic treatment but the bass still has horrendous nodes. For that reason I use monitors with 4" woofers and adjust anything with critical bass (not much in my case) when wearing good headphones.

The Neumanns are excellent monitors and if several parameters of my circumstances were different then I wouldn't hesitate.

So FWIW (maybe not much!) I'd say go for slightly more modest monitors but augment them with a good set of open-back headphones - eg AKG702.

[AlasdairEaston]

Thanks Mike, especially for your point about woofer size. Being swamped by bass is something that frustrates me, and even as a bass player, I'd rather have less low-end than muddy sound. So thanks for keeping me away from that pitfall.

I'm starting to have a look around at my options. I've avoided ever doing this since I knew I'd only create temptation for myself. Now it seems I might have no option.

Having thought a bit, I can't justify the KH80s, although my god they get great reviews. It's just a bit too much money to spend.

Alasdair.

[Drew Stephenson]

I bought the KH80s a couple of years ago, but at the same time listened to a few others and helped a friend choose some monitors earlier this year so I'd suggest having the following on your shortlist:
Adam T5V,
Kali LP-6,
Yamaha HS-5,
Focal Alpha 50,
And depending on how the budget will stretch, Focal Shape 40.

Have you got a decent set of open back headphones already?

[AlasdairEaston]

Thanks Drew, that looks really handy. I'll do some googling on those tonight.

Happily I do have some good open-backed headphones, AKG K712 Pro's, and I've been leaning on those more and more recently. It's not the same though, and after a few hours it feels great to take them off.

Cheers,
Alasdair.

[ef37a]

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/Tannoy- ... Foxv.P7Dz2

They ^ hardly get a mention these days in forums but we have been very happy with our Tannoy 5As over the years. I think the company has now been swallowed by the Behringer (aka Borg!) machine but they still at least put out a professionally written specification.

I am assuming the existing speakers are passive? That being so you might like to factor in a monitor controller?

Dave.

[AlasdairEaston]

Those DV247 catalogues recently started arriving at my house trying to tempt me. Thanks for the Tannoy tip. I'm in Edinburgh, and I confess the Scottish connection for Tannoy is an attraction but I don't imagine their budget gear is made here. I'll have a look at those monitors though, thanks.

More generally, looking at those ones and your list, Blinddrew, I'm relieved at some of the prices. Especially since I've just concluded that my Taylor acoustic guitar needs a neck reset as well as new frets. Ouch.

The thing is, these old Ruarks Templars I've got would have cost about 500 or 600 quid new in the early nineties. Has speaker tech and manufacturing moved on to the extent that a £300 pair of modern monitors, including all the inbuilt amps, etc. rival old passive speakers that, in today's money, would be much more expensive? I'd hate to feel like I've taken a step down in general audio performance.

If only I could just go down the shops and try them all out!

Cheers,
Alasdair.

[ef37a]

I would say speaker experts like Phil Ward would tell you that speaker technology has moved on phenomenally in 20 years! Not only are they more accurate than ever but much cheaper, electronics especially is peanuts.

Alasdair, if you intend to hold out for monitors that are made in these isles you will either have a very long wait or, take out a second mortgage, likely both. Even top end firms like SSL have to use Chinese manufacturers.

I found a Stereophile review of the Ruarcs and the chap LOVED them! However, his enthusiasm took the form of adjectives like "sweet" "cute" "soft" even. Very easy to drive and VERY pleasant to listen to, especially at (his words!) "The budget price". But, "cute" and "pleasant" are not properties you want in monitors. Yes, they should be smooth enough to not fatigue one's ears but above all they must not 'flatter'.

The only suggestion I can offer is to plough through the back issues of the magazine and find a likely candidate. Then ask back here in case any wobblies have shown up (such as random shut down and a 'one horse' software controller!)

Dave.

[zenguitar]

Especially since I've just concluded that my Taylor acoustic guitar needs a neck reset as well as new frets. Ouch.

Make sure that your tech knows that the Taylor neck can take shims to reset. Ideally you want someone who is experienced with Taylor. Or check with Taylor support for anyone recommended.

Andy

[Drew Stephenson]

The thing is, these old Ruarks Templars I've got would have cost about 500 or 600 quid new in the early nineties. Has speaker tech and manufacturing moved on to the extent that a £300 pair of modern monitors, including all the inbuilt amps, etc. rival old passive speakers that, in today's money, would be much more expensive? I'd hate to feel like I've taken a step down in general audio performance.

If only I could just go down the shops and try them all out!

My KH80s (admitted, out of your budget) replaced a set of £700 Dynaudio HiFi speakers driven by a £600 Musical Fidelity amp (both about 20-25 years old) and sound much better*.
I was very impressed by the new Adams but if you're still umming and ahhing it might be best to focus on the Taylor for now and wait until you could afford a step to something around the £800 - £1000 mark and be safe in the knowledge that you'll be getting a solid step up.

(* more detail, better stereo separation, flatter response, more consistent off-axis response.)

[AlasdairEaston]

Dave, that's great, thanks, that comment about things having moved on a lot. Just what I was hoping to hear! Those Adam T5V's get some really cracking reviews and the model up, the A5X's too. I wish they had something just in between. 600+ is a bit too rich for me.

The Focals that Blinddrew mentioned look fantastic too though. The Alpha 50 (5" woofer) and the Alpha 65 (6.5" woofer) look like real contenders. I could get the 65 monitor pair and cables for under £500.

Based on Mike's earlier advice I should be wary of going too big with the woofer, which might argue for the 50's. However... I'm a bass player, and I do have an electronic drum kit here which I love to bash, so the extra scale and power (to handle big drum transients perhaps?) of the 65's is appealing. My room floorspace is about 5.5m x 4.5m, although that slightly flatters it because it has coombed ceilings on three sides that bring the space down a bit. I do have basic rockwool traps in here too, spaced quite a bit off the walls with room (and good intentions!) for more.

The current Ruark's also have a 6.5" woofer and their -3dB point is 55Hz. I wouldn't describe them as especially boomy at modest listening levels in this room, although the room could definitely be better. The Focal 65's -3dB point is 40Hz.

Knowing already that the real answer is to try them out in my room, I can't resist asking the panel here... what's the view? 65's too big? Am I falling into the bigger-numbers-is-better trap? or do the 65's make sense?

Thanks again for all the help so far. I realise how close I am to becoming a pain in the backside. Is there an emoji for that?

[Sam Spoons]

I have a very old pair of Kef 104ABs as my monitors, they have an 8" woofer and a ~ 10" x 6" passive radiator. Quoted FR is 50 - 20,000 Hz +/- 2dB. My room is fairly well treated and much smaller than yours at 4 x 4 m. I think if it was me I'd probably go for the 65's and you can always roll off the LF for mixing if it excites the room to much.

But, don't take what I say too seriously, I'm a retired live sound guy who only really plays at recording.

[Drew Stephenson]

Personally I tend to err on the small side for woofers as *** WARNING! Massive generalisation coming! *** a smaller woofer tends to translate into better mid-range response.
I'd be surprised if you found the bottom end from the 50s disappointing, the feeling of power from the low end tends to come from control rather than real extension in my experience. Lots of extension but no control just leads to low end mess that results in transients being less apparent and therefore the bottom end has less impact.
YMMV!

[AlasdairEaston]

My KH80s (admitted, out of your budget) replaced a set of £700 Dynaudio HiFi speakers driven by a £600 Musical Fidelity amp (both about 20-25 years old) and sound much better*.
I was very impressed by the new Adams but if you're still umming and ahhing it might be best to focus on the Taylor for now and wait until you could afford a step to something around the £800 - £1000 mark and be safe in the knowledge that you'll be getting a solid step up.

(* more detail, better stereo separation, flatter response, more consistent off-axis response.)

Wow, that was already quite a set up. My Ruarks have been really nice hifi speakers and easily outclassed the rest of what used to be my hifi system. I could never have afforded them if it hadn't been a great second-hand deal from a good pal. In contrast my amp's just a budget Marantz model. I'm hoping that even just removing that from the equation will bring a big improvement. And my hand is about to be forced. The Ruarks are still playing up today. To no-one's surprise my "fix" isn't working!

[Drew Stephenson]

Wow, that was already quite a set up.

It was a nice hifi set up, but it was definitely on the flattering side. Sadly the amp gave up the ghost a couple of years ago (triggering the upgrade to the Neumanns).

[James Perrett]

I'm one of those contrarians who is happy to use a large speaker in a small room - provided it is the right sort of large speaker. In this case I've used my big 15" Tannoys in a room that was about 4m x 3m with me less than a couple of metres from the speakers. This worked because the Tannoy dual concentric driver gives extremely good stereo imaging close up and they don't have highly tuned ports (or at least not to my ears) so the bass is extended but not overblown.

I'd agree that speaker design has come on a bit over the years. If you compare the Neumann KH120 with the similarly sized LS3/5a you'll notice that the bass is far more extended with the Neumanns.

[Mike Stranks]

Time to show my hand methinks...

I have an earlier versions of these: https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/V4

... and there's also a V6.

No idea how that fits with your budget...

Some retailers will let you return speakers after buying - no questions asked. You could always buy your 'first on the list' and see how you get on.

FWIW, unless a retailer has a good, treated, quiet area for evaluating speakers on an A or B basis then I've not found retailer demos tell me much. And, of course, there's always the 'OK, so that's what they sound like here, but what about in my room?' conundrum.

[AlasdairEaston]

Especially since I've just concluded that my Taylor acoustic guitar needs a neck reset as well as new frets. Ouch.

Make sure that your tech knows that the Taylor neck can take shims to reset. Ideally you want someone who is experienced with Taylor. Or check with Taylor support for anyone recommended.

Andy

Thanks Andy. I've got GuitarGuitar here in Edinburgh. They're at Taylor's "silver" level repairs so maybe they'd take on a neck reset usually, but Covid's kiboshed that for the time being. When you say shims do you mean for their bolt-on necks? This one's a 2002 CE314 Limited Edition and I presume has the traditional style neck joint. I'm fearing the whole thing's going to be a tricky job.

[zenguitar]

The Taylor bolt on neck has been standard since 2001. And it it certainly used on current 314ce LE models. But an email to Taylor should confirm.

Andy

[AlasdairEaston]

Time to show my hand methinks...

I have an earlier versions of these: https://www.krkmusic.com/Studio-Monitors/V4

... and there's also a V6.

No idea how that fits with your budget...

Some retailers will let you return speakers after buying - no questions asked. You could always buy your 'first on the list' and see how you get on.

FWIW, unless a retailer has a good, treated, quiet area for evaluating speakers on an A or B basis then I've not found retailer demos tell me much. And, of course, there's always the 'OK, so that's what they sound like here, but what about in my room?' conundrum.

Thanks Mike. I did a bit of googling and those KRK's got really great reviews, notably in this very place, Sound on Sound, from Hugh Robjohns. Sadly, the price is just getting a bit too steep I think, especially if I start looking at the bigger 6" version.

Maybe I'll need to reset my expectations and my budget in the light of all this great advice though. I think at some point I'll need to do as you suggest: just buy the front-runner and see how it goes.

[AlasdairEaston]

The Taylor bolt on neck has been standard since 2001. And it it certainly used on current 314ce LE models. But an email to Taylor should confirm.

Andy

Ah, now that would be a bit of good news! Thanks, I'll get right on it.

[AlasdairEaston]

Quick update: I've ordered a pair of the Focal Alpha 65's from Scan. The Ruark's are really starting to fail and I'm worried that any more tightening of the Covid lockdown might mean problems sourcing replacements. That's probably not going to happen but the thought of having no speakers for weeks or months definitely focussed my mind. Normally I'd be researching and mulling this kind of thing over for weeks. These new ones should arrive tomorrow.

I'll post an update with my thoughts once I've given them a good run in. Thanks again for all your thoughts and experience.

One other quickie: Andy, thanks for the prompt about the NT neck on the Taylor. Turns out mine has one! - Phew, that's going to be a huge saving of money and worry.

Cheers all,
Alasdair.

[zenguitar]

Glad it's all working out for you

Andy

[AlasdairEaston]

Righto, I've had the Focal Alpha 65's here for a few days now and here are my thoughts so far. Hope this helps other folks looking at monitors around this price point. Forgive the waffling context but it might help others understand my situation and therefore how much of my experience applies to theirs.

After an easy set-up my first listen was The Final Cut by Pink Floyd. But that first listen was actually slightly underwhelming. I will say right here though that I've since warmed to them and I'm confident that they'll do me a great job. However that first listen, well, I think there were three problems: 1. My expectations; 2. My room; 3. Burn in time.

So, re. my expectations... My gut reaction on that first listen was that it wasn't as ruthlessly, murderously clear as I was expecting. In hindsight, to some extent, I'd been imagining that every single instrument and tiny noise, every breath, would jump out and say hello and be easily distinguished. Like some miracle of physics whereby, in the finale of Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 4, the rustle of the picolo player's jacket could be picked out and enjoyed just by turning your attention to it. Of course that's never going to happen, and that's quite right and proper. There can never be a recording or real life situation where *every* sound is up-front and present. Which is a great reminder for me that trying to create a mix like that is a fool's errand. If everything's at the front then nothing's at the front. So, that's one thing these monitor have already taught me.

Regarding my room, it's not exactly dead but it's not what you'd call "live". I guess it's the coombed ceilings and carpets. In my simple head, the high frequency waves bounce off the coombed ceilings (on 3 sides) down into the carpet and don't have the energy to reflect back from there much. I don't think there's a huge amount of high-mids flying around either but there is quite a bit of low mid and bass. I have some homemade bass-trapping in the form of constructed and fabric-wrapped 1200 x 600 Rockwool panels, and just slabs of Rockwool RW5 lying around, still in their factory wrapping. I need more though. So I'd say my room emphasises the lower end of the spectrum rather than the upper. It's tilted towards bass. If I was to use hopelessy unscientific language maybe I'd call it "warm" and a bit "fat". The opposite of cold and clanky. So these Alpha's have a job to do to deal with that, the challenge being clarity. I'd say they're doing pretty well. Certainly better than my old Ruarks and my old Marantz hifi amp. I think they're better than my room is, but that's not their fault, that's something I need to sort out.

Regarding burn-in time... I think it has made a difference, mostly in clarity. The bass seemed full and weighty right from the start. Treble seemed slightly understated at first but now seems right. Detailed and fine without being tiring.

So, all that waffle aside, what conclusions can I draw from the first few days use? I like them. With that caveat about my room acoustics, the sound is clear, detailed and weighty. I can't see many home/small studio people complaining about any lack of bottom end. The stereo imaging is great. I feel like I could reach out and grab sources in the mix with total precision -- that wee guitar line over there, the tambourine that comes in on the right just there, those individual backing singers dotted across the stereo image. I can also now hear things I previously couldn't, like in an old Motown mix, the character of the space where, say, the horn section was recorded.

I also now hear a bigger difference between commercial productions. To exaggerate slightly make the point, on the old Ruarks everything sounded broadly fine. Now it seems like there's a bigger difference between the good productions and the less good ones.

The Alphas also seem effortlessy powerful. Bass feels solid and steady, like the amps have a grip of iron on the speaker cones. Long sustaining deep bass notes in busy mixes feel unperturbed by any complexity going on above and around them.

Regarding the mids, I was about to say that they seemed a bit less forward than I'd expected. But on reflection I think that would be misleading. They are sweeter and more pleasant than I'd expected (or even feared?) but there is definitely much more clarity and detail there than in my old Ruark/Marantz setup. So that doesn't feel like a bad result! In fact it feels like a nifty feat to have pulled off. I'm certainly relieved that they're not cold, ruthless and tiring, which was a slight fear I had about studio monitors designed to reveal.
Indeed I've been happy spending many unbroken hours in front of these so far.

After the burn in period has fully passed and I've gotten used to them I'll probably dial back the bass slightly using the controls on the back.

So, do I wish I could afford block-busting £30,000 monitors and the room to go with them? Of course. Would Neumann KH80s sound better at "only" twice the price? I'm sure they would. But I can't have them, and I think these Alpha 65's will do me a great job. I enjoy using them, they seem like great tools, and certainly my production quality is not now constrained by my monitors. Now I only need to improve *everything else*!

Cheers,
Alasdair.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Sounds like they're doing all the right things, and your path of discovery is very familiar!

However, the one thing I would suggest is that rather than your room being generally 'warm' there's probably a few specific low frequencies (and their harmonics) that tend to dominate -- the room modes or resonances. As a result, you many well find that music sounds better in some keys than others, and that some bass notes are strong while others almost disappear.

One way of getting a good handle on what's going on is to generate/program a sequence of descending bass notes from (middle) C4 all the way down to C1, obviously with the same volume on each note. Make each note last a second or so, with a short gap between each note. That way you will be more aware of any resonances in the room causing notes to sustain. When you play that back over the speakers you will quickly appreciate just how lumpy your room is at the low end, and how much of an improvement you're gaining when adding bass absorbers.

Bear in mind that your speakers will have a falling efficiency as the notes descend too, so don't worry too much about maintaining the same level throughout -- it's the prominent peaks and troughs that are more important to address.