What Key do you put your vocals in when using Auto Tune?

[Sam Spoons]

I tell you what though, this conversation has become incredibly scientific for a vocal effect that actually makes a person sound like a frog in a bucket trying to sing the Aria from La Boheme. In my view NO amount of discussion as to which key is better for Autotune will improve the end result.

And so for that reason I say Fmin9th ...

Pass the screen wipes my dear...

[RichardT]

it’s quite common for musicians to give keys certain qualities. Before equal temperament, each key had slightly different intervals

no no no ! Equal temperment is the bodge.

Yup, it is but, RichardT, each key had slightly different intervals only when played on an instrument tuned with just intonation in a single key. Not sure I'm using the right words here*

Ah - Yes, that’s right, I wasn’t clear, I meant that on a single instrument set to a particular tuning, each key would sound different.

If different instruments were all tuned to different root notes using the same tuning system, then they would sound the ‘same’. But if these instruments tried to play together, I’m not sure how good the result would be!

[RichardT]

But this could also explain the claim that Dm is also a key of extreme power and is perhaps the saddest of all keys.

What you did there ^^^, I saw it.

It went way over my head - what did you see?

[Aled Hughes]

I don’t see how one interval can be more ‘natural’ than another.

With just intonation a perfect fifth, for example, has a frequency at a ratio of 3/2 of the root note. This is regardless of key. As such, the relationship between the pitches is the same in all keys, regardless of any absolute frequency values

Yes, but just intonation is specific to a key - just intonation in C major does not use the same pitches as just intonation in E. If you play an instrument tuned in just intonation in a different key from the intended one it can sound really bad.

Yes, and that’s the whole point isn’t it. Just intonation maintains the ‘correct’ ratios between intervals, but can only accommodate one key. The tuning has to be changed in order to maintain the ratios in a different key. I.e in order to sound the same.

As I said, a perfect fifth is a frequency 2/3 of the root, regardless of key. That relationship stays the same, and the tuning is adjusted to accomodate the key.

In other words, the intervals are the same as long as you’re tuned to the correct key.

[Sam Spoons]

Perfect, two paragraphs to say what I failed to manage in about 200 words...

[RichardT]

I don’t see how one interval can be more ‘natural’ than another.

With just intonation a perfect fifth, for example, has a frequency at a ratio of 3/2 of the root note. This is regardless of key. As such, the relationship between the pitches is the same in all keys, regardless of any absolute frequency values

Yes, but just intonation is specific to a key - just intonation in C major does not use the same pitches as just intonation in E. If you play an instrument tuned in just intonation in a different key from the intended one it can sound really bad.

Yes, and that’s the whole point isn’t it. Just intonation maintains the ‘correct’ ratios between intervals, but can only accommodate one key. The tuning has to be changed in order to maintain the ratios in a different key. I.e in order to sound the same.

As I said, a perfect fifth is a frequency 2/3 of the root, regardless of key. That relationship stays the same, and the tuning is adjusted to accomodate the key.

In other words, the intervals are the same as long as you’re tuned to the correct key.

Well, in that case, I think we agree!

[Aled Hughes]

Well, in that case, I think we agree!

Good... but what I said is in complete disagreement with

Before equal temperament, each key had slightly different intervals

!

[RichardT]

Well, in that case, I think we agree!

Good... but what I said is in complete disagreement with

Before equal temperament, each key had slightly different intervals

!

Not atall, as I said above I was talking about individual instruments. So for example an organ would sound different in different keys, as would a harpsichord tuned to, say, mean temperament in C.

Also if a piece included sections in different keys the intervals would be different in those different keys whatever tuning was chosen. String players would naturally compensate for that to some extent, but not all instruments can. So there would be differences.

[S2]

But this could also explain the claim that Dm is also a key of extreme power and is perhaps the saddest of all keys.

What you did there ^^^, I saw it.

It went way over my head - what did you see?

I’m thinking the Spinal Tap reference.

In other news, it was nice to see the return of Alanonguitar a little earlier in the thread!!

[CS70]

In other words, the intervals are the same as long as you’re tuned to the correct key.

You're perfectly correct of course - what I wonder is if certain specific frequencies are perceived slightly differently by our cognitive processes and thus may produce slightly different emotional results when used in music.

The idea sounds a bit ridiculous initially, true. But in the end music is the result of frequencies of moving air as interpreted by our brain, which is often not that linear. If that were the case, a progression made by chords built over identical "just" intervals but starting at different root notes might feel a little bit different.

I don't buy for a second that something as little as a few Hertz has a significant impact (like the funny debate about 440Hz for A), but does a C Am G where the chords are built on just intervals feel different to a "just" F Dm C ? Does it convey a different emotion?

Probably not. But I've never tried.

::starts looking for an online generator of progressions of chords made in just temperament::

[Sam Spoons]

Well, Dm (the m2) in the key of C would be different to Dm (6m) in F. And we still haven't explored the variations in concert pitch over the years, Dm in A=440 would be the same as D#m for A=415 (commonly used when playing Baroque instruments)...

[merlyn]

I don’t see how one interval can be more ‘natural’ than another.

In this context I'm assuming 'natural' means 'derived from the harmonic series'.

With just intonation a perfect fifth, for example, has a frequency at a ratio of 3/2 of the root note.

So a just intonated perfect fifth is derived from the harmonic series. It is the third harmonic (multiply by three) brought down an octave (divide by two).

This is regardless of key. As such, the relationship between the pitches is the same in all keys, regardless of any absolute frequency values

Yes, but with just intonation there are more than twelve keys. For example F# is a different note from Gb and so a scale could be built on either. In tempered tuning or 12 tone equal temperament (12 TET) Gb and F# are the same note. This produces the circle of fifths :



It is possible to derive 12 notes by repeatedly using the ratio 3/2 and this is called Pythagorean tuning. But there is a problem. Powers of 3/2 never come out as a power of 2. Starting on C and going up 12 fifths should bring us back to the note C transposed 7 octaves up. But it doesn't.

(3/2)^12 = ~129.75
2^7 = 128

This is saying B# is a different note from C. In Pythagorean tuning the circle of fifths isn't a circle anymore -- it's a spiral of fifths. In my picture of history Bach took the spiral of fifths, heated it in a furnace, and hammered it into a circle. The gap between B# and C is called the Pythagorean comma, and it is this error that is distributed evenly across all notes in 12 TET.

[Murray B]

Merlyn,

Your post is a wonderful piece of work and explains the issues of intonation, intervals and the compromises of standard tunings beautifully. Thank you for taking the time and effort to compose it.

It also helps me justify to myself all the time I spend subtly changing the tuning of my guitar until I can make it sound as right as I can for the key I'm in It's a form of slight OCD madness of course that usually get dropped as soon as I'm with a full band, but it works well when I working with the fiddle players probably cause they are playing with their ears rather than with frets.

[shufflebeat]

Beautifully expressed, Merlin, explains perfectly why I can't sing in tune and how it's not my fault.

[merlyn]

You're welcome. I'm glad it was helpful.