Piano, Effects Processing ???

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Hi

Regarding effects processing tools such as Compressors, Limiters and Normalization, is it necessary to add any of these effects to a solo piano recording if intended for retail? I'm sure this depends on many factors and is widely debatable amongst others, namely personal choice.

Or would just a clean i high quality input recording be all that's necessary?

Garritans CFX Concert Grand
Logic Pro,
Soundtracks piano.

[The Elf]

Compare your recording to a commercial piano recording that you like. Does your recording compare well? If not, why not? Once you've figured out why then use the tools you have to get from what you have to closer to what you want to hear.

Once your recording compares favourably, even if it's not 100% the same (the final steps are all about personal taste), then you're there.

That's really all there is to it!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Regarding effects processing tools such as Compressors, Limiters and Normalization, is it necessary to add any of these effects to a solo piano recording if intended for retail?

Compressors and limiters are necessary if the dynamic range of the recording exceeds the dynamic expectations of the clients. None of us know what kind of dynamic range your music has, or what your clients might expect.

Loudness normalisation is relevant if your retail sales are via a streaming setvice, but peak normalisation is more appropriate for CD sales. Apply as necessary...

Or would just a clean i high quality input recording be all that's necessary?

If it sounds great, it is great. Many commercial acoustic piano recordings are completely unprocessed because they need no processing. Others require some help. It all depends, as you say...

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Many commercial acoustic piano recordings are completely unprocessed because they need no processing. Others require some help. It all depends, as you say...

That's good to here, as i felt a little inapt about adding processing to the piano thus potentially deducting much of it's natural tonal character? The Yamaha CFX Concert Grand recorded at Abbey Road Studios comes with a Classic Perspective using Close / Ambient MIC positions.

Neumann M49 and KM184 mics were placed at each end and MID field of the piano, the natural acoustics of AR1 were also recorded with the CFX creating a natural ambient reverb environment.
This classic perspective of the piano delivers an exceptionally warm ambient clean recording that would sound perfect just as it is..

[Eddy Deegan]

The technology/recording techniques used at source when creating the piano library are irrelevant when auditioning something you've created using them.

Of course they will help, probably a lot, but judge the recording on its own merits not those of the talented folks who created the samples you're using.

It's all about the peformance of the piece at the artist's end and the manner in which the audio file is produced.

Compression is fine if used sympathetically but if the piano piece has a wide dymanic range be very careful about any compression you add, as overdoing it can seriously impact the integrity of a good performance.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

The technology/recording techniques used at source when creating the piano library are irrelevant when auditioning something you've created using them.

Of course they will help, probably a lot, but judge the recording on its own merits not those of the talented folks who created the samples you're using.

It's all about the peformance of the piece at the artist's end and the manner in which the audio file is produced.

Compression is fine if used sympathetically but if the piano piece has a wide dymanic range be very careful about any compression you add, as overdoing it can seriously impact the integrity of a good performance.

A nicely rendered response, I'll keep all that in mind. However if needing to add compression at some point? Is there a standard ratio setting that some go by? Or a general rule as to how much should be applied to attenuate for the dynamics?

[Eddy Deegan]

Is there a standard ratio setting that some go by? Or a general rule as to how much should be applied to attenuate for the dynamics?

It's all dependent on the ear; there are no hard and fast rules. Piano sounds are subjective and dynamics are more important to some genres than others. If the effect is obvious, it's probably too much, Less is more!

[CS70]

A nicely rendered response, I'll keep all that in mind. However if needing to add compression at some point? Is there a standard ratio setting that some go by? Or a general rule as to how much should be applied to attenuate for the dynamics?

No general rules, as you imagine. Think about the destination.. not sure what you mean "for retail", do you mean background music in shops? In that case, I imagine you will not want huge variations in level between notes, chords and sections.

If you want something rather flat and dull and not attracting much attention, fast attack and long release are what you need - the compressor will grab the transients early and try to pull everything together all the time, the instantaneous level will be nearer to the average, and our brain processes that stuff like background.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Not that I've spent much time with Effects Processing tools such as a Compressor, but i assume without having much knowledge regarding ratio settings, i imagine presets may help to determine the right type of compression needing to be applied when dealing with various dynamic ranges?

[muzines]

Not really, no. Honestly - if you don't know how to hear compression, and how the various parameters interact and so on and how and when to use it, you are best off not adding any imo.

By all means you can experiment, but if you aren't sure by listening what's good and what isn't, it might not be that beneficial.

[RichardT]

Not that I've spent much time with Effects Processing tools such as a Compressor, but i assume without having much knowledge regarding ratio settings, i imagine presets may help to determine the right type of compression needing to be applied when dealing with various dynamic ranges?

As Desmond says, no, you can’t rely on presets to get what you want. I’m afraid there aren’t very many shortcuts when it comes to producing music.

You can’t for sure shortcut the listening and analysing part - you need to identify what the music needs and work out the right remedies. The only way to learn how to do this is through practice and study.

There’s a theme in your posts - you’re looking for out of the box solutions that don’t involve using your own judgement - but there aren’t any. Have you thought about working with somebody else who has production skills so you can concentrate on the music?

[The Elf]

As above ^^^

You do seem to be looking for a magic wand, and the truth is that there simply isn't one. I'm not saying this to be cruel, but trying to save you the heartache of discovering it for yourself the long and hard way.

The best 'out of the box' solution is an engineer who can do these things for you.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

I'm still at the confusing stage of mastering the intricacies of music production,

Thank you all for your support, helpful.

[CS70]

Not that I've spent much time with Effects Processing tools such as a Compressor, but i assume without having much knowledge regarding ratio settings, i imagine presets may help to determine the right type of compression needing to be applied when dealing with various dynamic ranges?

Joining the choir: no. For one, presets will have no idea what's the level for your signal (which is how you set your threshold), nor what tempo is your music (which is how you set your attack and release) nor the dynamic range (which is how you set the compression ratio).

Repeat with me: I don't need a compressor.

Really, you don't.

[The Elf]

I'm still at the confusing stage of mastering the intricacies of music production

Then keep it simple, simple, simple.

Listen to tone. Are there any frequencies your ear doesn't like? Cut them. Are there any frequencies you'd like to hear more of? Boost them. Do the minimum you have to. Cut rather than boost - narrow cuts, wide boosts. Are the frequencies you're trying to boost not there? Try a different piano.

Listen to dynamics. Is every note getting through as it should? If not then compression *may* be needed - or is it the performance? A solo piano really shouldn't need compression.

Listen to the ambience. Too dry? More/longer reverb (and other parameters we needn't go into here). Too wet? Back off the reverb amount/time, and maybe increase pre-delay.

None of the above will a preset be able to achieve for you. Listen, react, listen, react, listen... repeat until you're happy.

Just don't go running away with the idea that a sampled piano, no matter what its pedigree, or who's endorsing it, will sit naked and exposed, sounding like the finest concert grand played in a fine-sounding hall. The reality is that a sampled piano doesn't tell the whole story - it's an illusion. In a mix you'll not tell the difference, but solo you're always going to hear the compromises.

[CS70]

Just as a comment... In fairness, it can be very hard to distinguish frequencies , dynamics and ambience in terms of "I don't like this" for someone with no experience. Most people with no experience will just have a vague feeling of something off, but being able to actually pinpoint what it is, and then fix it, it is a skill. And (I speak for myself) a skill that one never stops learning and improving

But to the OP: Elf's advice is invaluable. Keep it simple. Don't do stuff "just because" - every move you make in a mix should have a reason, and if you don't know what you're trying to achieve, don't do it.

Take an effect (say compression) learn its basics, and then try to achieve a certain goal (say you want to make sure there's no level lower than -20dB and higher than -10dB, stuff like that), and go back re-reading in case of trouble. It's gonna take some time but it's not rocket science, it just takes patience, method and practice.

[shufflebeat]

I misread the thread title as:

"Piano, effects poisoning"

Which has some resonance (ha!) for me and might be relevant to the issue.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

A solo piano really shouldn't need compression

Really.. why is that ?

[CS70]

A solo piano really shouldn't need compression

Really.. why is that ?

Compression is needed only if the dynamic range of the source (i.e. the difference in level between the quietest and loudest sounds) exceeds the one of the recording medium.
With 24 bits recording, that never happens (bar an operator error, when the gain level for the source is set too high). That's because 24 bits allow for a huge dynamic range (even taking into consideration that real-world equipment won't make use of all the bits available).

Specifically, the dynamic range possible for any piano is smaller than the one that can be accommodated by a digital 24 bits recording. So you don't need compression.

You can still use compression "for color" (i.e. to change the timbre and the feel of the recording), but for classical recordings normally the point is to capture (or create) the performance as it is, not change it.

[CS70]

By the way, something that came to my mind.

If you are using sample-based instruments or synths, it's often the case that their gain settings out of the box are, for some reason, ridiculously high (they peak near 0dbFS).

At least I've seen it a lot with drums instruments. I guess they do it because inexperienced users may think there's something wrong otherwise. A consequence of this is that people end up thinking they need to compress the instrument - especially if it's in a mix with something else.

So if you are writing your MIDI performance or playing it, check the meter levels on the instrument track.

If the peaks are anywhere 0dBFS, the first thing to do is to lower the gain level of the channel containing the instrument, so that your loudest playing peaks around -12dBFS on the DAW meter and no higher. If it sounds too low, turn up your playback volume.

[Arpangel]

A solo piano really shouldn't need compression

Really.. why is that ?

"Oh yes it does"!!!!!
One of my favourite piano sounds is on very old worn out films, where they have used way too much compression, with a long slow release time, where you can hear the release of the piano notes being brought back up with all the noise of the optical sound track, that’s a classic, very emotive sound, which you can duplicate with a nasty compressor, and a tape simulator.

[Hugh Robjohns]

But that's a broadcasting shortcut rather than a conventional mixing/mastering technique, and your tastes are just weird! Let's not get the chap even more confused than he already is!

[The Elf]

A solo piano really shouldn't need compression

Really.. why is that ?

The others have covered this. Hopefully you're recording 24-bit and leaving sensible headroom - no meaningful piano note is going to get lost with that amount of dynamic range.

You seem to be starting from the premise that to make a good recording you need to do A, B, C, D... and add process E, F, G... If it were that prescriptive then all our recordings would sound perfect!

It's rather like an artist asking 'does my painting need the colour green?'. It may do, it may not. Only *you* can tell!

A large generalisation here, but... with solo recordings, the *less* you can do (especially with 'classical' material), the better.

[CS70]

A solo piano really shouldn't need compression

Really.. why is that ?

"Oh yes it does"!!!!!
One of my favourite piano sounds is on very old worn out films, where they have used way too much compression, with a long slow release time, where you can hear the release of the piano notes being brought back up with all the noise of the optical sound track, that’s a classic, very emotive sound, which you can duplicate with a nasty compressor, and a tape simulator.

There's the difference between can and need.

[Drew Stephenson]

If you are using sample-based instruments or synths, it's often the case that their gain settings out of the box are, for some reason, ridiculously high (they peak near 0dbFS).

Quoting this for emphasis. I don't use a lot of VSTs but of the ones I have probably more than half have their default level set way higher than it needs to be.
Bring it down to a sensible level and play with passion and feeling, and let the dynamics take care of themselves.