Hi, me again. There seems to be knowledgeable peps here so I thought I'd ask:
I've purchased the 18i20 last year, pretty happy with it (thanks to you guys )
But I have already maxed out the inputs with synths (4) and I want to acquire more synths. I couldn't help noticing other sound cards like the Presonus Quantum and Audient (asp800), and before tying myself with the focusrites brand by getting a second one, I want to explore my options.
So my question really is: do these cards mentionned above worth (sound quality wise) the extra dough? I would mind loosing a few hundreds on selling the focusrite to invest right away into something better. By opposition to tying more cash in something I might want to replace anyway later.
What would you do if you were me? Any other interface suggestions? I use only synths.
Cheers!
Last edited by Dniss on Sun Jan 24, 2021 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
You will probably not hear much difference in quality between the Focusrite and a different convertor. You need the rest of your signal chain to be of extremely high quality to hear any difference and, even then, it is quite possible that the difference will be so small that you won't notice it.
However, as you are running out of channels and have an ADAT input on your interface it would make sense to add an 8 channel A/D to make use of that input. So, something like an Audient ASP800 would be a possible addition but the most noticeable change would probably be down to its usability rather than a difference in sound quality. However, for line level sources you may be equally happy with a Behringer ADA8200 for around a third of the price.
As far as future investment goes, you are much safer investing in a separate 8 channel A/D than you are in a new audio interface. The A/D will be usable with a range of different interfaces in the future.
I would look at adding a lot of inputs in one swoop. To that end I favour MADI and perhaps Dante. It's not a cheap option, either way, so what's the budget here?
I also have a synth-heavy studio, and my solution was an RME MADIFace XT and a pair of Ferrofish A32, providing 64 line ins and outs. It surprising how quickly I've filled it all up...
James Perrett wrote:As far as future investment goes, you are much safer investing in a separate 8 channel A/D than you are in a new audio interface. The A/D will be usable with a range of different interfaces in the future.
Thanks for so nicely clearing this up for me.
Can you give me an example of an 8 channel A/D? I'm not entirely sure of the point you're making and I'd like to understand. Adding a second 18i20 is not adding another 8 channel A/D?
The Elf wrote:I would look at adding a lot of inputs in one swoop. To that end I favour MADI and perhaps Dante. It's not a cheap option, either way, so what's the budget here?
I also have a synth-heavy studio, and my solution was an RME MADIFace XT and a pair of Ferrofish A32, providing 64 line ins and outs. It surprising how quickly I've filled it all up...
ahah very nice!! Not what I had in mind budget wise.
My budget is roughly the price of 2 Quantum interface. With 16 mono input I will be fine for a long time.
James Perrett wrote:As far as future investment goes, you are much safer investing in a separate 8 channel A/D than you are in a new audio interface. The A/D will be usable with a range of different interfaces in the future.
Thanks for so nicely clearing this up for me.
Can you give me an example of an 8 channel A/D? I'm not entirely sure of the point you're making and I'd like to understand. Adding a second 18i20 is not adding another 8 channel A/D?
An 8 channel AD is a box that can convert 8 line signals (usually presented as 8 XLR sockets or TS jacks) from analogue audio to equivalent digital audio, and pass this latter to the interface. There are several different digital audio transport formats, and ADAT is one of them. Since your interface has ADAT connectivity, you simply connect the AD converter to the interface with the right cable and your interface suddenly will have 8 more line channels - so that you can connect the synths to the AD converter and "see" them via the interface as normal.
Converters come in all costs and quality, the cheapest being - I gather - the Behringer ADA 8200 and the most expensive... well, sky's the limit. At home I use a RME ADI Pro and it works perfectly. At the studio I have Prims and Lucid.
If you need more than 8 additional channels, ADAT is no longer enough. Then you need a multi channel digital interface, such as the Elf's, which allows you to see up to 64 or 128 digital audio streams - each set of 8 produced by different converter boxes. It gets expensive pretty soon.
I understand the 8200 does already a more than decent job, but James knows more about the specifics than I.
Last edited by CS70 on Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:54 pm, edited 6 times in total.
James Perrett wrote:As far as future investment goes, you are much safer investing in a separate 8 channel A/D than you are in a new audio interface. The A/D will be usable with a range of different interfaces in the future.
Thanks for so nicely clearing this up for me.
Can you give me an example of an 8 channel A/D? I'm not entirely sure of the point you're making and I'd like to understand. Adding a second 18i20 is not adding another 8 channel A/D?
I think CS70 has explained it fairly well. The 18i20 is a complete audio interface but all you need is something that turns line level signals into digital to feed into the additional inputs on your existing 18i20. For some reason most of the affordable 8 channel units include mic preamps too - line level A/D convertors tend to be at the higher end of the market - as you've seen with Elf's recommendation.
My setups are mainly based around various 8 channel A/D's feeding mainly RME interfaces. I have a couple of old Alesis ADAT LX20 recorders, Behringer ADA8000, Focusrite Saffire Pro26io and Audent ASP008. All of these can be used to convert analogue line level signals to digital although I've listed them roughly in ascending order of quality. The LX20's and ADA8000 convertors are based on similar (possibly identical) 20 year old technology and can impart a very slight "graininess" to the sound but once you get up to the Focusrite level the sound quality differences are extremely small.
I would add that I haven't used the Behringer ADA8200 but Hugh's review in the magazine said that it was much improved over the ADA8000 so it would certainly be worth considering if you are on a tight budget.
Last edited by James Perrett on Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If I were adding audio inputs in the numbers you are considering I think I would rethink my strategy and go down another route rather than a audio interface with ADAT type extensions.
I have the Liquid 56 and ADA8200 which is great for vocals guitars etc but you are adding/wanting a lot of inputs that may or may not be utilised all the time sat idle taking up input space/slots?? I have my gear in a small cabinet and I added the MS800 to my setup which goes into the back of my Liquid 56. AS its inputs are on the front of the cabinet I can swap out the input source/xlr without going to the back of the interface. But I also bought a snake box that goes from the MS800 and ADAT8200 to anywhere I want and from there xlr cables to the source. Add into that I added a Samson x-Patch plus that sits between the audio interface/ADAT and the MS800 and a Di-Pro I can also use that to break add in mix the channels in any way I want. SO I have potentially a lot of inputs available if only 16 in use/available at any one time.
If I were doing it all again from scratch I would probably get the Behringer X-Air 18 or X32, which I am seriously thinking about buying as a control surface and mobile recording desk.
Reducing the budget option a little, my second choice would be an RME Fireface and something like the Ferrofish A16. And if the Ferrofish doesn't suit, then down to the Behringer ADA8200. The good thing is that you can later add another ADA8200 for 8 more inputs to a Fireface.
You've already maxxed out your current input count. I can almost guarantee it won't be long before you max out 16 inputs!
Last edited by The Elf on Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have 2 Alesis AI3 ADAT interfaces hooked up to my interface, giving me 16 additional line level I/O. They pop up on ebay reasonably frequently for between £50 and £100.
Very happy with mine, they seem rock solid.
Stu.
Last edited by Moroccomoose on Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
blinddrew wrote:I see the 18i20 has two ADAT inputs on the back but am I right in thinking it can still only take 8 additional inputs, even at base rates?
That's what the panel label seems to imply. Looks like Focusrite want you to buy the Rednet range if you want high channel counts.
James Perrett wrote:As far as future investment goes, you are much safer investing in a separate 8 channel A/D than you are in a new audio interface. The A/D will be usable with a range of different interfaces in the future.
Hi James, I think I get it now. Since the focusrite IS an audio interface (with AD inputs), I don't need a second one, so I should be able to connect an ASP800 and it should work. Makes sense? Will they sync ok?
Thank you very much!
Last edited by Dniss on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
CS70 wrote:If you need more than 8 additional channels, ADAT is no longer enough. Then you need a multi channel digital interface, such as the Elf's, which allows you to see up to 64 or 128 digital audio streams - each set of 8 produced by different converter boxes. It gets expensive pretty soon.
Now that I understand the difference between audio interface and AD converter I understand your comment! Thanks I appreciate the input.
Last edited by Dniss on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
uselessoldman wrote:If I were adding audio inputs in the numbers you are considering I think I would rethink my strategy and go down another route rather than a audio interface with ADAT type extensions.
I have the Liquid 56 and ADA8200 which is great for vocals guitars etc but you are adding/wanting a lot of inputs that may or may not be utilised all the time sat idle taking up input space/slots?? I have my gear in a small cabinet and I added the MS800 to my setup which goes into the back of my Liquid 56. AS its inputs are on the front of the cabinet I can swap out the input source/xlr without going to the back of the interface. But I also bought a snake box that goes from the MS800 and ADAT8200 to anywhere I want and from there xlr cables to the source. Add into that I added a Samson x-Patch plus that sits between the audio interface/ADAT and the MS800 and a Di-Pro I can also use that to break add in mix the channels in any way I want. SO I have potentially a lot of inputs available if only 16 in use/available at any one time.
If I were doing it all again from scratch I would probably get the Behringer X-Air 18 or X32, which I am seriously thinking about buying as a control surface and mobile recording desk.
To tell you the truth I will have to read this a few more time to figure it out.
I was thinking of getting an ASP800 and eventually sell my focusrite to get a 2nd ASP800 with the Audient IDxx. I doubt I will need more inputs at once, so I figured I'll add a patch bay and call it a day.
What do you think?
Last edited by Dniss on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Elf wrote:Reducing the budget option a little, my second choice would be an RME Fireface and something like the Ferrofish A16. And if the Ferrofish doesn't suit, then down to the Behringer ADA8200. The good thing is that you can later add another ADA8200 for 8 more inputs to a Fireface.
You've already maxxed out your current input count. I can almost guarantee it won't be long before you max out 16 inputs!
Bear in mind I filled the inputs with synths I had for many years, already. Got rid of a mixer. And I figured I could prolly manage with 16 inputs, tha'st like 8 synths with stereo outputs at once. I could get a patch bay and change the mix if I get more synths.
But I like the suggestion. I don't understand why u would mix a fairly (relatively) expensive interface with (apparently) lower quality ADA8200 though. The AD matters less?
blinddrew wrote:I see the 18i20 has two ADAT inputs on the back but am I right in thinking it can still only take 8 additional inputs, even at base rates?
That's what the panel label seems to imply. Looks like Focusrite want you to buy the Rednet range if you want high channel counts.
Yes 8 additional inputs only. From what I understood you have to use both ADAT at once to acheive 96khz with the second unit, I think.
Last edited by Dniss on Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dniss wrote:I don't understand why u would mix a fairly (relatively) expensive interface with (apparently) lower quality ADA8200 though. The AD matters less?
It's more that the quality of even a cheap one is reasonable enough, so long it outputs nominal 24 bits. After all, you probably listen thru different A/D/A converters all of the time nowadays and don't notice any difference (TV, DAB radio, Spotify, conversations on the phone, video meetings, cat videos on Facebook, YouTube channels, you name it) and some of them are dreadful by comparison (i.e.. much shorter word lengths, less stable clocking, cheap analogue front ends and the likes). Within reason, it also matters less.
Last edited by CS70 on Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dniss no problem it can confuse myself sometimes if I am half asleep. The issue I had was the inputs for my Liquid 56 are on the back and the thought of continuously swapping XLR/TRS cables just sounded like one bad nightmare.
I should have bought a bigger rack cabinet but since I got this one cheap I cannot complain too much. Its also all nicely cabled up at the back with patch panels - not finished.
Last edited by uselessoldman on Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alternatives: if you're recording each synth as an overdub to the DAW, you don't need as many inputs as you have synth outputs. So:
1. You could use a patchbay and simply patch in whatever you want to record to the inputs (it's what I have here).
2. Analogue mixer with enough channels for all the synths. Just bring up the fader for the ones you want to record (Paul Hartnoll of Orbital does this).
Also note:
If you've a Mac, you can connect several USB interfaces and make an Aggregate Device.
Last edited by Tomás Mulcahy on Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dniss wrote:But I like the suggestion. I don't understand why u would mix a fairly (relatively) expensive interface with (apparently) lower quality ADA8200 though.
It's just an option for you, depending on budget. That said, the ADA8200 is much better than you might imagine - and to get something significantly better you'll have to pay significantly more. Money being no concern I'd go for the Ferrofish A16.
Just be aware that the A16 has no gain controls.
Last edited by The Elf on Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dniss wrote:
To tell you the truth I will have to read this a few more time to figure it out.
I was thinking of getting an ASP800 and eventually sell my focusrite to get a 2nd ASP800 with the Audient IDxx. I doubt I will need more inputs at once, so I figured I'll add a patch bay and call it a day.
What do you think?
Two Audients feeding an audio interface will be a good system for someone who needs mic inputs. I'd use an RME Digiface USB instead of the Audient interface. However, the Audients use 25 pin connectors for line inputs so you'll either need to have all your synths close together or you'll need a patchbay to run the cables to. Another issue with running multiple Audient preamps together is that you need some way to synchronise their digital clocks. They only have word clock input so, with a Digiface USB, you need a way of generating word clock.
In your situation I would keep your existing interface as it will keep life simple and just use one additional ASP800 with it.
Tomás Mulcahy wrote:Alternatives: if you're recording each synth as an overdub to the DAW, you don't need as many inputs as you have synth outputs. So:
1. You could use a patchbay and simply patch in whatever you want to record to the inputs (it's what I have here).
2. Analogue mixer with enough channels for all the synths. Just bring up the fader for the ones you want to record (Paul Hartnoll of Orbital does this).
Also note:
If you've a Mac, you can connect several USB interfaces and make an Aggregate Device.
Yes thanks I will get a patch bay. With 16 inputs and a patch bay I should be ok for a while.
Dniss wrote:But I like the suggestion. I don't understand why u would mix a fairly (relatively) expensive interface with (apparently) lower quality ADA8200 though.
It's just an option for you, depending on budget. That said, the ADA8200 is much better than you might imagine - and to get something significantly better you'll have to pay significantly more. Money being no concern I'd go for the Ferrofish A16.
Just be aware that the A16 has no gain controls.
Oh ok, the reviews are really not that great. But you know, compare to what, top on the line?
That Ferrofish is really nice. That would certainly do the trick.
)
