Anyone excited about Optical Pickups...?

[ZfM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mISvoHKMl0U

It'd be especially helpful if they made it easily detachable so that one pickup can be used with multiple guitars.

Still, no one seems that intrigued, the company Light4Sound having just 347 subscribers! Really, I'm thinking of buying one as a matter of priority in case the company goes bust through complete lack of interest.

https://youtu.be/vMPv_RdXvRI = just 5K views since Apr 2018
https://youtu.be/1gzW6geV_0U = just 6K views since Jul 2018 (SOS)
https://youtu.be/aOSq10rGqzc = just 17K views since Oct 2019
https://youtu.be/4ZMHW529EAs = just 17K views since Apr 2020

Personally, I think this could be a truly transformative technology, not as a substitute for existing pickup types, but for the new sonic possibilities, the full extent of which have probably yet to be discovered.

It's not only the ability to use nylon strings on any type of guitar (which would be amazing), but to have the clearest possible transmission of string vibration to an amp or recorder, string-by-string level & tone control, tuning adjustments, MIDI controlled synths (like 'Hex' pickups), and to amplify all string instruments, including bowed instruments and keyboards, not to mention pickups for mouth organ reeds & plucked lamellae instruments if the technology is adapted. They offer the possibility of providing truly viable amplified string instruments for classical & folk styles of music, i.e. acoustic sounds that can be transparently amplified, perhaps with nonlinear convolution IRs of instrument bodies or in addition to a conventional microphone.

I'm not sure if this is a 'You can bring the horse to the water...' type scenario or if there's some insurmountable problem with them that I'm missing.

[Sam Spoons]

That looks amazing

[Folderol]

Seriously impressive
I was completely unaware of this, yet it's been around for a couple of years now!

[zenguitar]

I've not been following this development, although if memory serves me correctly I do recall 1980's MIDI guitar prototypes that used optical string sensing.

In principle optical pick-ups offer massive opportunities. However, the experience of hex pick-ups for MIDI and general individual string output systems are a salutary reminder that guitarists are, in the main, a conservative bunch.

Having ideas is all well and good, but having ideas is remarkably easy. The difficult part is what you do with those ideas; how you communicate them, whether you can identify a killer application for them, can you bring a product to market with the resources to give it a reasonable chance of success.

Hexaphonic guitar synth/MIDI is a mature technology. I first owned one 30 years ago and had wanted one for a good decade before that, I've made custom installations for hex pick-ups. The current Boss SY1000 is a remarkable piece of mature technology, but it remains a niche product. And once I have access to a suitable workshop I fully intend to build a guitar with MIDI pick-up and purchase an SY1000.

But there are reasons why it remains a niche product. And the biggest one of all is that it doesn't play nicely with a traditional guitar amp. You either have to have a 2nd amp/FX rig for the synth or you have to rely on FOH/studio monitors to use alongside your guitar rig.

Yes, there are plenty of hardware/software options to put together a live/studio rig but they involve so many compromises or expense.

Of course, I could spend some time and effort watching those YouTube videos and demonstrations. But what's the point? Where's the product? I've been tempted far too many times over the decades with innovations that don't deliver or turned into evolutionary dead ends. Making YouTube videos is trivially simple, but why haven't they approached Sound On Sound with a product to review, or even a prototype with a technical article about the technology and its potential? What haven't they done the same and engaged with Guitarist magazine?

When, and if, they come to market with a viable product (including practical ways to integrate it with my existing guitar rig) I'll pay attention. Until then there's nothing to get excited about.

Andy

[Music Wolf]

Of course, I could spend some time and effort watching those YouTube videos and demonstrations. But what's the point? Where's the product?

That pretty much sums up what I felt.

The nylon strings on a Strat thing was very impressive but, for the cost of a cheap Strat + pickup, I could buy a Yamaha SLG200N silent guitar (to sit along side my 200S). Of course I don't even bother taking my Yamaha to practice anymore (when we are allowed to practice that is) because my Helix does a good enough job of simulating an acoustic sound without the need to change guitars.

Now if someone could invent something to make a steel strung electric guitar sound like a nylon strung guitar, without the need to change strings, then that's a product that I would be interested in.

[Sam Spoons]

Now if someone could invent something to make a steel strung electric guitar sound like a nylon strung guitar, without the need to change strings, then that's a product that I would be interested in.

Interesting point, I wonder how close the Tone Dexter could get or, I guess, a custom IR in the Helix (unless you mean unamplified)?

The problem with midi guitar is the processing latency. AFAIK the SY series get around this by using the guitar signal as the basic waveform rather than digitising it before processing. As Andy says it's a bit niche...

[CS70]

Personally, I think this could be a truly transformative technology, not as a substitute for existing pickup types, but for the new sonic possibilities, the full extent of which have probably yet to be discovered.

Saw it a few years ago when I was looking for a nylon-string electric to use on stage and stumbled on the nylon stringed strat.

I had no idea about the tech, but I wanted to try one! Don't remember looking at the price but it would have to compete at least with the Yamaha and Godin nylons which I think are already fairly expensive for what they do. I then preferred to prioritize recording equipment as in the end it's just two/three songs in a 15 songs set that I'd use it for (and of course right now, no sets) .. but I still want one

Not sure about "transformative" (it would be still me doing the playing, and that's 99% of it) but definitely an interesting idea and it would very usable on stage - just the form factor.

I think part of the low response is that there's very few people who, like me, do occasionally rock/pop songs on nylon string guitars. I suspect most of the guitar-handling crowd is either firmly classical and flamenco (and thus uninterested in Stratocaster looking guitars and untraditional things) or have never put their hands on a nylon-string guitar.

But I'd love to get one to try!

[Music Wolf]

a custom IR in the Helix (unless you mean unamplified)?

I must admit, I haven't looked specifically for a Nylon IR (the steel acoustic IRs are very good if you get the right match for the pickup / guitar)

The problem with midi guitar is the processing latency. AFAIK the SY series get around this by using the guitar signal as the basic waveform rather than digitising it before processing. As Andy says it's a bit niche...

Yes, the SY-1 and SY-300 filter the guitar signal. I have the SY-300 and it is effectively zero latency. The results are along the lines of an analogue synth, don't expect to get piano sounds out of it. The SY-1000 also has a GK pickup input which I guess is needed to access the full range of features / sounds.

[CS70]

Now if someone could invent something to make a steel strung electric guitar sound like a nylon strung guitar, without the need to change strings, then that's a product that I would be interested in.

Interesting point, I wonder how close the Tone Dexter could get or, I guess, a custom IR in the Helix (unless you mean unamplified)?

The problem with midi guitar is the processing latency. AFAIK the SY series get around this by using the guitar signal as the basic waveform rather than digitising it before processing. As Andy says it's a bit niche...

I think a lot is not the sound, but the feel of strings and the way you make them "bounce" of a nylon that just doesn't happen with steel strings (at least for me) when using fingers. It all depends on the material of course, lots of stuff works just as well. Rasgueados and triplets for example, you can do them on a metal-string no problem.

That's what interested me in the nylon strat - metallic strings respond differently enough that it's worth its own physical device imho.

[BigRedX]

I used to own a Lightwave fretless bass guitar, with optical pickups.

The sound was amazing and because the string detection system doesn't rely on magnets you can use any string material so lots of opportunities for experimentation. That's the theory.

In practice setting up the system for different string types was massively complicated - IIRC the first time I changed strings it took me two evenings of fiddling about with allen keys for the string height, intonation and sensor position as well as adjusting several micro potentiometers in the circuitry - that once I had found a set that I liked the sound and feel of (TI Jazz Flats) I didn't bother experimenting any further.

In the end I sold it when I did my big clear out of instruments I wasn't using, partly because it only had four strings, and partly because I wan't playing any music that required fretless bass anymore. However should those circumstances change I would most definitely consider buying a 5-string version.

[Folderol]

I would guess that another point in its favour would be zero hum pickup - even if it stood up leaning against an elderly valve amplifier

[Drew Stephenson]

Can't help but feel that Andy nailed this with his second paragraph. Guitarists, as a bunch, are still buying the guitars and amps that were designed 50-70 years ago, we're not exactly progressive...
Might be better to target bass players actually.

[shufflebeat]

Can't help but feel that Andy nailed this with his second paragraph. Guitarists, as a bunch, are still buying the guitars and amps that were designed 50-70 years ago, we're not exactly progressive...
Might be better to target bass players actually.

Somewhat ironically it's the acoustic Beardies that are embracing the new wave of SBT/IR technology and spending Bare Dollar (I had that said to me last night and almost wet myself) on the fresh units.

[Drew Stephenson]

Actually that doesn't surprise me that much, because there's an actual problem to solve - i.e. making a plugged in acoustic sound like an actual acoustic without that horrible piezo noise.
Whereas if you want an electric guitar to sound like a proper electric when it's plugged in...

[Sam Spoons]

Actually that doesn't surprise me that much, because there's an actual problem to solve - i.e. making a plugged in acoustic sound like an actual acoustic without that horrible piezo noise.
Whereas if you want an electric guitar to sound like a proper electric when it's plugged in...

Absolutely true, but there are ways and means (usually involving a heavy chunk of digital processing).

My favourite acoustic pickups were Fishman Rare Earth (I have three, one of each flavour) until I bought my Tone Dexter preamp. Even the Fishmans have an element of spikiness reminiscent of piezo quack so it's not just the transducer, maybe it's because they are sensing the string only and not the body of the guitar?

[merlyn]

I've got a Godin guitar with a 13 pin out and a Roland GR-55 synth. I've gigged that setup a lot. I've got a Phil Jones guitar amp that has two channels -- one could be used for a mic so it's clean and full range, but I don't think the amp is why guitar synths aren't popular.

At one gig my amp broke down and I used another band's valve Fender -- maybe it was a Deluxe Reverb. Whatever it was it had two inputs meaning I could plug the synth in. I thought I might not use the synth if it was a distorted mess but it wasn't -- it was good.

The reason I think guitar synths aren't popular is that a guitar synth is a different instrument. Think of going from piano to synth. A pianist could try Moonlight Sonata on a string patch and declare the synth useless. A kind of sloppy, loose, funky style is good on an electric guitar but it doesn't work on a guitar synth. For a start to use keyboard sounds pick and fingers technique makes sense; sometimes it's best to put the synth in chromatic mode to ignore pitch bend; there are other things guitarists wouldn't get on with.

Latency isn't a huge issue and latency gets lower the higher the pitch. False triggering is an issue so setting the sensitivity and the threshold at which to ignore notes is important, another aspect that might put guitarists off, buried in menus as it is.

Having said that in addition to normal kinds of sounds like strings and keys I've got some nutty wailing synth sounds in there that I've had a lot of fun with playing out-there fusion.

[CS70]

My favourite acoustic pickups were Fishman Rare Earth (I have three, one of each flavour) until I bought my Tone Dexter preamp. Even the Fishmans have an element of spikiness reminiscent of piezo quack so it's not just the transducer, maybe it's because they are sensing the string only and not the body of the guitar?

I bet it is.. a soundboard will resonate sympathetically but the overall movement of air will so much more complex - first of all it's 2D and not a line, second, various bits of the surface will resonate a little differently due to different dampening and anchoring points... to say nothing of the contribution of the air inside the cavity, which would probably act as a bouncy dampener and contribute to change the vibrations even more.

The whole is enormously richer than just a single string vibration as detected by pickups.

I wonder.. for electric guitars/amps, the cabinet is essential exactly because it filters the actual sound generated by the amplifiers.

Perhaps we've taken it all wrong all these years and the right way to generate an acoustic sound from an electric guitar is to take the string vibration only as an input to a system made by a surface made to vibrate sympathetically like a soundboard. A bit like the first plate reverbs.. basically detaching the soundboard from the actual instrument!

[Drew Stephenson]

A sort of 'body simulator' where you take a clean electric signal from a saddle pick-up, apply it to a resonant plate and then add in the signal from the plate somehow?

[CS70]

A sort of 'body simulator' where you take a clean electric signal from a saddle pick-up, apply it to a resonant plate and then add in the signal from the plate somehow?

Yeah. I'm thinking about a good wooden soundboard (square, for example), attached midway in an enclosure. There's a bridge at certain point - we could start with a "regular" guitar bridge position. The pickup picks up the vibrations, sends them to a reverse transducer on this bridge, which re-transforms them in vibrations which make the soundboard vibrate the same way that it does normally, There would be air enclosed under the board which would act a bit as a guitar body does, possibly with a vent to simulate the sound hole (i.e. allowing the air to "pump" in an out).

A microphone is suspended over the board. The whole is sealed in a cabinet, with just the vent, and placed away from other instruments.

You would have a fully acoustic sound but no feedback due other instruments etc. The entire thing could be as small as a 24hr luggage or as big as a small guitar combo.

Guess the tension normally provided by the strings could be also added in some mechanical form.

It would be fun to try to build one.

[Martin Walker]

I remember reviewing many years ago for SOS a plug-in that added acoustic guitar convolution to an electric guitar sound, and which sounded quite effective.

Can't find it in my plugins folder at the moment, but I'll see if I can blow off all the dust and track down the review.

Martin

[ZfM]

I think a lot is not the sound, but the feel of strings and the way you make them "bounce" of a nylon that just doesn't happen with steel strings (at least for me) when using fingers...

That's what interested me in the nylon strat - metallic strings respond differently enough that it's worth its own physical device imho.

Yes, that's exactly it, at least partly. I always wanted to have a nylon-stringed guitar with a thin neck, but the 3/4 sized instruments I tried rarely sounded great. My playing style doesn't suit classical left-hand technique at all, but whenever I play nylon-stringed guitar, I loved the feel of the strings for the right hand, for finger-picking flamenco style strumming, colour, false harmonic tones, etc. There's something about the lack of 'give' that has advantages.

That said, the slide guitar playing I saw with the oPik sounded surprisingly good considering that style is associated with vintage guitars and pickups, and the 'Coodercaster' with its Gold Foils. Actually, I think Ry Cooder needed the Guyatone pickups to brighten the sound because he's using high-gauge strings preferable for slide, which sound duller when electrified (though brighter acoustically).

I also wonder what the technology has to offer lap-steel guitar players, especially with the open re-tuning potential that they do mechanically, via foot pedals. Also, the acoustic brightness of high gauge strings seems to be picked up optically, but not magnetically.

https://youtu.be/7gWW4enmqnQ

Of course, I could spend some time and effort watching those YouTube videos and demonstrations. But what's the point? Where's the product?

Making YouTube videos is trivially simple, but why haven't they approached Sound On Sound with a product to review, or even a prototype with a technical article about the technology and its potential?

SoundOnSound, NAMM: 2018: https://youtu.be/1gzW6geV_0U

Maybe Light4Sound could raise the profile of the pickup by getting the likes of John McLaughlin to endorse it (he plays a MIDI guitar too actually), perhaps also Dweezil Zappa and the 'stunt' guitarists of the 90s that are still popular. I'm sure Frank Zappa would've have endorsed it. He had a piezo fitted into the neck socket of his Stratocaster to capture some acoustic resonance.

Can't help but feel that Andy nailed this with his second paragraph. Guitarists, as a bunch, are still buying the guitars and amps that were designed 50-70 years ago, we're not exactly progressive....

I am also non-progressive with the guitars & amps I prefer. I feel they nailed the sound and construction of electric guitars in the 1950s and 60s for blues, rock'n'roll, funk, jazz based music. I think the oPik (or a contender) could offer something for those styles too, however. I know people always assume there is a way to progress, but can you improve on a violin, for instance? I always thought pickups and microphones would probably be improved upon, in terms of fidelity at least.

[ZfM]

I remember reviewing many years ago for SOS a plug-in that added acoustic guitar convolution to an electric guitar sound, and which sounded quite effective.

Can't find it in my plugins folder at the moment, but I'll see if I can blow off all the dust and track down the review.

Martin

Bodilizer?

[awjoe]

I think a lot is not the sound, but the feel of strings and the way you make them "bounce" on a nylon that just doesn't happen with steel strings (at least for me) when using fingers.

My Tele feels different - the strings vibrate more freely - when it's not plugged in and the pickups aren't active. I prefer that feel to the plugged in feel. I wonder if the optic pickup would allow that.

[Folderol]

I think a lot is not the sound, but the feel of strings and the way you make them "bounce" on a nylon that just doesn't happen with steel strings (at least for me) when using fingers.

My Tele feels different - the strings vibrate more freely - when it's not plugged in and the pickups aren't active. I prefer that feel to the plugged in feel. I wonder if the optic pickup would allow that.

It takes energy to develop a current in the pickup coils and there is only one place that can come from
A light beam however imparts a tiny, tiny, tiny push against the strings.

[CS70]

I think a lot is not the sound, but the feel of strings and the way you make them "bounce" on a nylon that just doesn't happen with steel strings (at least for me) when using fingers.

My Tele feels different - the strings vibrate more freely - when it's not plugged in and the pickups aren't active. I prefer that feel to the plugged in feel. I wonder if the optic pickup would allow that.

Fun... the strings are in the same magnetic field all the time, regardless of the guitar being plugged in or not. The only difference should be that with the guitar plugged in the loop is closed so current flow (not sure how things are when the jack is not inserted, if the guitar wiring is an open circuit or not, I guess it is)