Does any one buy software?

[entireweb]

I have noticed most of the current music software available on bittorrent or edonkey; the big sequencers and vst plugins. Considering that they are downloadable as pure iso images and are installable trouble free, with cracks etc, does any one bother buying them? Piracy etc is obviously illegal and I dont support it, but if no ones buying the stuff then maybe this will be a future problem, etc. It seems as though everything has been cracked, even dongle protection etc. Maybe this will revive hardware sales!

[Ian Threlfall]

Except 2 of the biggest.

Pro Tools (Which may well be now we have M-Powered)
Logic 7 Pro - (Which dongle is unreverse-engineerable as its resin sealed)

Many people buy them, I mean any person who is making a living out of music software really really has to buy it, educational establishments, all of whome could get audited.

Plus even everday people like me! I own Wavelab 5, Pro Tools LE and am saving up for Logic Pro (May take a while!)

But i do see your point, and I belive it is leading to increased price of software, and possible problems.

[entireweb]

Actually pro tools mpowered has just been cracked. I could post the link, but for obvious reasons I wont.

[jellyjim]

Yes, I do.

It feels much better buying than stealing. One has a greater sense of the value of something and I think one makes better use of it as a result. Somehow it makes you value yourself and your creative process more too.

Jim

[Michael B]

It does, and maybe I'm deluding myself, but my PC is much more stable.

I bought Cubase VST and upgraded to SX1. The PC never, like never, had any problems.

I put a crack of SX2 on as a favour to a mate who always uses cracks - he wanted me to do some production work on tracks he'd supplied. Slowly but surely the PC started to get unreliable, with Cubase corrupting it's own files.

I also justified my decision to put the cracked copy on as I fully intended to, and now have done, bought SX3

Before my copy of SX3 arrived, I removed the cracked copy of SX2, rebuilt the machine and re-installed my legal copy of SX1. Again the PC was stable and crash free, I could leave it sequencing for days and days, no freezes or crackles or all the rest of it.

My mate with the cracked actually runs a commercial studio on craqcked software, and he usually has to put up a 'closed for maintenance' sign up almost every other month

I do think that the heaveyweight software like the full version of Cubase could be a lot cheaper, but I could do with cheaper beer as well - it don't suppose that's going to happen

[Richiebee]

I can usually con my employer into buying me all the software I want, but I have also spent a significant amount on it too. Especially this year.

I never use pirated software, or illegal music downloads.

I've occasionally been very disappointed by software developers who seem to do little to encourage you to buy - like Macromedia for instance who refused to allow me to transfer my licence from Windows to Mac even though both versions came on the disc I purchased. Once it had been installed on one OS, it could not be transferred to the other. Waves also seems to want to take every opportunity it can to take more money from you, and I think this kind of attitude certainly doesn't enourage people to purchase legal software.

Unlike many people, I don't have a problem with dongles, in fact I think the Syncrosoft system that I have with Cubase SX and numerous other products is great.

While on the subject, I have a gripe... people who buy educational versions even though they don't qualify for them, or who don't use them in accordance with the licence agreement. Somehow they think they're using software legally because they paid some money... they're not, and might as well be getting a pirate copy from BitTorrent or whatever the hell its called.

Rich

[The real musiclover]

Oh no. Not again!

Crack'eads on the line freaking out, dangerous!

Anyone cracks my 'ardware i crack their 'eads. Not really, i'm too like, far out maaan.

Software.

[Richiebee]

Oh no. Not again!

Crack'eads on the line freaking out, dangerous!

Anyone cracks my 'ardware i crack their 'eads. Not really, i'm too like, far out maaan.

Software.

your not hardcore man dont you no that you need to use no puntuation no upper case and your spelling has to suck you also need to use a z instead of an s in lots of places

[Combo]

I buy my software but most of my friends don't. TBH playing with their cracks in the past has inspired me to buy software that I thought I didn't need until I used it. I've also bought upgrades and lived to regret it. Soundforge 7 being a case in point.

I used to use a crack of Tera 2 for a while coz my bought copy wouldn't authorise properly. Many people were having the same problem at the time but none of the suggested solutions I read on their forum worked for me. Now I've got v3 and have no problems. I also heard of folks on KVR who were using cracks of waves stuff coz their paid for copies were giving them grief, Back in the v4 days. But that is hearsay.

From the moral perspective, I am happier giving my money to PSP or fxpansion than to bigger companies like Steinberg or Sony. Mainly coz the smaller companies seem to take customer concerns much more seriously. But I still pay the big boys for their wares.

I got no problems with the idea of dongles either but they seem to've gone out of fashion. the only one I use is for Cubase. Maybe if I had 10 of them I would feel differently. As things stand I dread reformatting my system and all the emails that are involved in reauthorising all my software.

[Spacehog]

I know of a few people who use the cracked versions of the Waves plugins even though they own the legit ones, purely because the cracked versions are more stable and don't use the stupid copy protection system. Personally, can't stand the plugins - never bought them, and I admit that I tried out a cracked version when I was a student a few years ago which cemented the idea in my head that they are a complete waste of money. I use a reasonable number of plugins, both freeware and purchased, but nothing cracked.

I have a legit copy of Cubase SX2 that's about as stable as Windows ME on my desktop PC for some reason - thankfully it runs fine on my laptop, otherwise I'd have been sorely annoyed by it. Thankfully I'm a Sonar user so don't have to deal with stupid plastic dongles that split open within 30 seconds of you taking them out of the box. Can't fault the Syncrosoft protection from a software point of view, the stability issue is with Cubase itself, but the hardware is poorly made - I've ended up wrapping it in electrical tape to hold it together.

I can certainly understand why people crack software. Companies really don't help sometimes. Just before I moved house, I bought full versions of Soundforge 7 and CD Architect 5 from Sony's website... I was off the internet for a couple of months, and when I got back on, I discovered that CD Architect was now free with Soundforge 8 (for the same price) - so basically my $200 had been wasted. It's software I use a lot, but something like this would certainly encourage a more malicious person to crack Sony's software (which doesn't appear to be very difficult to do, from what I've seen).

I don't think lowering the price of software would drastically reduce software piracy (although it would to an extent - I would maybe have bought more as a student if I could have afforded it, and even now I balk at certain upgrade costs). I like the idea of tying software into a piece of hardware, but only if that hardware does something useful (storing licenses or even the whole software to make installation and transferring between machines easier, or providing DSP etc) and is well made.

FWIW, I know there are plenty of horror stories about viruses, spyware etc in cracked software, but out of all the people I've met who've used any, I've not come across a single person who's had any problems at all. I'd say I've come across far more people who've had instability issues with the legit versions of software than with cracked versions. And that's something manufacturers need to sort out if they actually want to keep their business.

[Andi]

I have a mate who has gone so far along the download route for both software and music / video that I honestly don't believe that he now has any concept of buying material.

He used to send me CDs, then DVDs of downloaded gear. One single disc had in the region of £20K of software on it (of which I haven't been bothered to install a single item). Oddly, when I wanted a new compresor I went and downloaded a freebie Kjaerhaus unit insetead of going to my extensive coaster collection.

I have to say though that I feel like a right mug sometimes when I type in my credit card details to get something that I know I could get for free in a couple of days. The funny thing is that I'm really not clever enough to choose between any of the 20 diferent reverbs or compressors that I have on disc, I want one that I can use and get used to just like I would if I went out and bought one.

I did spend a spell downloading music and found the same thing happened, I would download 15 CDs and not listen to any of them. I go out and buy 1 or 2 CDs and play the grooves off them.

The real irony is that my mate is a metalhead, he loves that 80s shred stuff. He constantly bemoans the fact that there is so little of his type of music being released, then, when a new band gets released he downloads it and wonders why the band gets dropped by the stupid record company. I've just ordered CDs by The Answer and Roadstar because I expect to like the music and I want these guys to be around for a while.

[infiniteloop]

I'm a Mac user (sorry PC dudes..!!) & the issue of cracked software applies to us too. For a while I used a cracked version of Cubase SX but when I bought my new Mac this version was not compatable, so I had to go and buy Cubase SL3 'cos I couldn't afford SX3 which costs nearly £500..!! Maybe the software giants should realise that we're not all mega-bucks recording stars with loads of dosh to through around..surely they must realise that the average musicians income makes buying their software a luxury that most can't afford, hence the use of cracked software. Surely it's better to sell 3 copies of Cubase SX for £200 than it is to sell one at nearly £500. My point is that the software should be made affordable, and I don't just mean music software I mean ALL software..maybe then the humble musician trying to make an honest living like myself wouldn't have to resort to using hacked software..

[Richiebee]

Maybe the software giants should realise that we're not all mega-bucks recording stars with loads of dosh to through around..surely they must realise that the average musicians income makes buying their software a luxury that most can't afford, hence the use of cracked software.

I think Steinberg has the right idea - three different versions of Cubase to suit different sized pockets.

R.

[Blueflash]

I understand why pewople want to download free software, we get it in my shop all the time ( www.jbsmusic.com ) and for trialling software it can sometimes be useful but you have to understand that these companies are tiny and they reply on people buying the software to carry on updating and improving, if they have to spend time devising new ways to beat the hackers then that takes their time away from what we'd rather they were doing.
I have no problem with people trying stuff but please, if you use it, buy it, it's cheaper than hardware by a long way and more convenient, if we reallyl ook at our setups do we need hundreds of VST instruments? Nope, only a few choice ones and if we pay for them, they will be updated, mostly for free and we'll be rewarded for brand loyalty...like in Sainsburys!
Dan

[Martin Walker]

We've heard all the arguments many times here before, but I'm pleased to see so many honest people here who want to keep developers in business so we get new products developed.

I've long been an advocate of not everyone having to have the really expensive flagship versions of MIDI+Audio sequencers, and have written about this in SOS in the past:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr05/articles/pcmusician.htm

So I was pleased to receive a press release from Arbiter here in the UK a few days ago with the news that the price of Cubase SL has now dropped from about £280 to just £199 - it does everything that most musicians need.

And while there's no excuse for ripping any developer off, some are literally one-man operations, so if you don't support them they end up getting another job and we don't see any more products from them in the future.

My point is that the software should be made affordable, and I don't just mean music software I mean ALL software..maybe then the humble musician trying to make an honest living like myself wouldn't have to resort to using hacked software..

Surely some lapse in logic there infiniteloop? How can you be trying to make an honest living when you're using hacked software

Martin

[Smithee]

I've been down the whole cracked software road in the past and it's not an expecially fulfilling one.
Software can be expensive and not always justifibly so. For the power that something like Nuendo offers and when placed against its DSP based rivals, it comes out as very competitively priced (despite version 3's price increases). Compare that to Pro Tools M-Powered, which on a feature to feature comparison, appears very expensive against software Like Sonar or Cubase which come in at that price point.

I also agree that software companies don't help themselves. From Microsoft's anti-piracy (and anti-privacy) measures like Windows Genuine Advantage/Product Activation etc.. to Steinberg's love of dongles and the oh so popular challenge-response system used with many plugins, there systems often annoy legitamite users whilst being easily bypassed by crackers. Of course they want to stamp out piracy, and that's why these systems are used, but Steinberg dongle emulators or work-arounds aren't too hard to find and a cracked copy of Cubase is just an eDonkey search away. Ultimately, the dongle only serves to cause problems for legitamite users' machines when they're not recognised or cause problems after upgrades.
Thankfully, some companies like Cakewalk don't burden users unecessarily with such systems, their software is also cheaper yet it's been Steinberg and not Cakewalk that's been the subject of buyouts and takeovers.
I think I should also mention open source software ( , there's always one), which ironically you can also find on Warez servers - although no doubt they're virus filled versions. There's lots of open source software (mostly for Linux or Mac, but some for Windows) that is more than adequate for many people's needs. Audacity is one excellent example, it not only offers plenty of audiofile editing tools, but also very advanced stuff like spectrum views.
It's often put forward as an argument, that when you start using cracks/warez it's easy to just download every piece of software and every plugin you can fine, when in fact you don't have a clue how to use any of it. And in my own personal experience, it's ultimately better for the person, if they learn the theory and the basics of audio with the multitude of free (and often very high quality) plugins out there than trying to use the Waves Diamond Pack with absolutely no theory behind you.

And just in case I didn't make it clear, I don't use any software that isn't legitamite. I also don't illegally share music etc...
Just because something's expensive and overpriced, that's not an excuse to steal it. Whether you agree or not with the what the seller's done with the product, you can't justify stealing from the seller, just because you think their wrong. You also can't justify stealing, just becasue you can't afford it! I've always found the argument that because you're a poor student, it's okay to pirate stuff as being rather odd. I'm a student, and I can't afford a lot of stuff (a car, accomodation that isn't next to the main road and a HD TV would all be lovely), but I don't think I could justify stealing those things.
It's another cliche argument against piracy, but I don't think it's a bad one.

Anyway.., that's my £0.02 .

[trip_out]

I've been down the whole cracked software route, even so far as to feel angred by emagic stopping the PC version (because of people like me!). At the time I felt okay using it because I was a poor student and rightly or wrongly I justified it by saying I'd buy it if I used it enough or made money out of it.

However now that I only use legit software, I find myself feeling happier. From a karma perspective, and also from the fact that I generally use smaller developers software and if I have a problem there is often someone on hand to answer and fix things. Web forums are much friendlier when you are not asking for manuals

These days I have licenses for energyXT, Tracktion, Synthmaker, Wusikstation, and I've just saved my pennies and bought Ableton Live. I'm sure that all of these have cracks, but I'm happy to support all these.

I don't know if I'd be the same with the majors (yes I know Ableton is getting there now), but that is just a personal perspective.

[infiniteloop]

Surely some lapse in logic there infiniteloop? How can you be trying to make an honest living when you're using hacked software

That's my point...!! I'm TRYING to make an honest living..!! At the end of the day I have to use the software and if I can't afford it then I have no choice but to use hacked versions. I'd rather not..but I've no choice. I don't have a 9 - 5 job and make music as a hobby..it's how I make my living. I also agree that Steinberg are kinda on the right track with offering 3 diffent versions of Cubase with 3 different prices, but I don't see why I should have to pay to use a cut-down version when I can use the hacked full version for free. Make it affordable to everyone and we'll see the end of software hacking.

[Stephen Parker]

Morning - I think one of the problems here is that guys such as infiniteloop even think it's justifiable to use something they didn't pay for - ignoring the fact that he might make some money from it.

I'm not going to get into analogies as to be honest, most are bollocks, but if there isn't a sea-change in opinions, the general music maker is going to have a lot less options, as software companies will not be able to afford to keep investing in product just to have it stolen.

I can't believe that you think that because SE3 is 'cut-down' compared to a crack of SX3, it's OK to use!! How about no choice as an alternative?

I was with NI last week and they have illegal download figures for Traktor over 4 months of in the region of 500,000 downloads. We know that not all downloaded cracks are used, but these kind of figures can't be ignored.

Cheers

Steve

Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group

[Andi]

Given SOS' zero tolerance policy towards illegal software use, hasn't Infinite just typed something along the lines of "I'm an unreconstructed and unrepentant user of hacked software in a commercial environment, please revoke my SOS forum sign-in immediately".

Sorry bud but your argument sounds a bit like "why should I use an Epiphone when I can steal a Gibson". It's crap!

Oh, and you do have a choice - the same one that everyone else has.

[Martin Walker]

At the end of the day I have to use the software and if I can't afford it then I have no choice but to use hacked versions. I'd rather not..but I've no choice. I don't have a 9 - 5 job and make music as a hobby..it's how I make my living.

Another mighty lapse in logic infiniteloop. 'At the end of the day' you don't HAVE to use the software - you obviously WANT to use it, but don't want to PAY for it unless you absolutely have to, and are happy to use an ILLEGAL version.

You say you don't have a 9 to 5 job and make music as a hobby, but then say in the same sentence that's how you make your living. You can't have it both ways! If you want to make a living from your music you're presumably expecting to receive some money for it, and software developers have the same right to expect people to pay for their products. If you consider them too expensive then don't buy them.

As many have already said here, there's plenty of good FREE software out there for those who for whatever reason can't afford to pay for commercial products. Sadly you're not making many friends here by persisting in the attitude that if something is too expensive then you'll just steal it.

Martin

[Nailbunny]

for every 10 people that have a cracked version 1 person has bought a copy. This is just viral marketing really and could be good for the company. Is this really where they are getting their revenue stream from, Im not convinced of that. Plus if you have a company you are really supposed to buy a legal copy! Just like I did, ahem.

[Combo]

Well it would be if those 10 people all used the cracks that they own (is that the right word?) My buddies seem to have a lot of stuff that just sits on their drives and never even gets installed.

Andi also makes a good point that you can often be more productive with a limited palette of plugins that you know inside out than a vast array that you haven't even worked right through the presets of.

[infiniteloop]

Martin Walker....Why don't you read my reply properly..? I said I don't have a 9-5 job and don't make music as just a 'hobby'. This forum is full of do-good bible thumpers. OPEN YOUR EYES for Gods sake..!! As for the user who suggested my forum rights be removed..who do you think you are..? This forum is titled 'Does anyone buy software' and I'm every bit as entitled to my say as you are to yours..! Last I remember we live in a country where freedom of speech is still allowed..even if it's not what you want to hear. Why don't you all get down off your high horses and relax..? The ONLY point I was trying to make is that I think if software was made more affordable then we would see less hacks being used. To the user who suggests I don't use the hacked software and instead just don't use ANYTHING..oh dear..you do live in the dark ages don't you..!! The choice is mine to make whether it's right or wrong. I'd much rather the authentic item was affordable and use that but if I can't afford it then so be it..and just for the record, I now have an authentic non-hacked Cubase SL, and it's no better or worse than any hacks of SX that I've seen..so how do we convince people NOT to use free hacked software but instead go and spend their hard earned money on the real deal. To me it's simple..MAKE THE SOFTWARE AFFORDABLE..!

[Peter Conz Connelly]

Chill out

It probably would be more affordable if people weren't using illigitimate copies. It's the thieving gippos that keep the costs up!

P