Mastering Solo Piano ???

[DigitalMusicProduction]

Hi

Concerning solo piano recordings, is there anything one could add at the mastering stage to give the tracks a more clear vibrant sound? All tracks were recorded using Garritans Yamaha
CFX sample library at a flat frequency, stereo imaging has been applied using Logics Direction Mixer, then gainstaged. All tracks seem fine when played back via numerous stereo devices, however when compared too other professional solo piano recordings the tracks seem less vibrant with a loss of clarity.

[Drew Stephenson]

That sounds like more of a mix issue than a mastering one. If ever I'm thinking I'm missing a bit of clarity I generally start with looking at the low mids. It's really easy to add lots of power and weight here to give the forte sections plenty of punch or to make something nice and sonorous, but it's easy to overdo it.
It might be worth just taking a moderate Q eq, with a couple of dB negative gain, and giving it a bit of a sweep around that area to see if that brings back a bit of sparkle.

[Airfix]

i bet u guessed this - sampled piano is the issue. Put some almost unheard ambience verb first - then process.
But who knows - what 'room' is on those samples in the first place. I love real piano - every time

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, that would be my first thought.

There is a reason professional concert pianists still make recordings with acoustic pianos in nice acoustics.

Sampled pianos are amazingly good, but not the same.

[RichardT]

Hi

Concerning solo piano recordings, is there anything one could add at the mastering stage to give the tracks a more clear vibrant sound? All tracks were recorded using Garritans Yamaha
CFX sample library at a flat frequency, stereo imaging has been applied using Logics Direction Mixer, then gainstaged. All tracks seem fine when played back via numerous stereo devices, however when compared too other professional solo piano recordings the tracks seem less vibrant with a loss of clarity.

The answer is yes, if you use a good mastering engineer experienced in the genre. They can make a big difference.

You can also look at

- reverb settings
- dynamics and tone settings on the piano
- midi dynamics (e.g. midi compression, midi velocities)
- cutting some lower mid frequencies 200-500Hz
- a slight HF boost
- increasing the sample rate, if you’re working at 44.1 or 48kHz

[DigitalMusicProduction]

It might be worth just taking a moderate Q eq, with a couple of dB negative gain, and giving it a bit of a sweep around that area to see if that brings back a bit of sparkle.

I considered that option, however it was recommended not to touch the EQ due to it clashing with othere users play back stereo
Systems depending on their EQ settings.

[Drew Stephenson]

Hmm. I suspect some wires are crossed somewhere. Whilst I certainly wouldn't advocate any heavy EQ that would affect the general tonality of the piece a bit of broad but shallow EQ should be transparent.

[Eddy Deegan]

it was recommended not to touch the EQ due to it clashing with othere users play back stereo
Systems depending on their EQ settings.

This makes little sense. You cannot possibly take into account the EQ applied by listeners as they will differ wildly depending on their taste, equipment and environment.

Just make it sound good on your headphones or monitors and let others figure out their own EQ adjustments if they want more bass, more treble or whatever.

If it sounds good on speakers with a reasonably flat frequency response then it should sound reasonably good on almost anything else.

[The Elf]

it was recommended not to touch the EQ due to it clashing with othere users play back stereo Systems depending on their EQ settings.

Who gave you that advice?

[BWC]

it was recommended not to touch the EQ due to it clashing with othere users play back stereo Systems depending on their EQ settings.

Who gave you that advice?

So, we should never EQ anything, then? Just leave it up to the listeners to do all the EQ'ing? Whoever did give that advice, thank them for me, I needed a laugh.

[RichardT]

The other thing that is important is the quality of performance - great pianists are able to bring clarity and dynamism to their performance. If you post a sample recording on Soundcloud and post a link here we can give you better advice.

If you were advised not to EQ the performance, that was bad advice. Mastering engineers, for example, will certainly consider using EQ when mastering piano pieces - not necessarily blatant, but subtle.

[James Perrett]

What was actually said in previous threads was that it was very unusual for eq to be used on a classical piano recording with a real instrument. In that case the sound is governed by the instrument, acoustic space, microphone choice and microphone position.

I wonder if your samples have been eq'd already with the expectation that they would be used in pop productions rather than classical productions so they need to sound somewhat larger than life?

[tea for two]

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/produc ... r-next-mix

5 plugins that try to recreate ambiance of famous recording studios.
I wonder what they would add to a Sample Piano.

I wonder if there's an opportunity for say Spectrasonics to create a plugin simulating some of the famous Concert Halls in usa, uk, europe, japan.

[James Perrett]

I wonder if there's an opportunity for say Spectrasonics to create a plugin simulating some of the famous Concert Halls in usa, uk, europe, japan.

Plenty of those available already for free - look at the Voxengo collection.

[Drew Stephenson]

Not sure if Inspirata are still doing a free version of their plugin but there's some gorgeous sounds in there.

[Hugh Robjohns]

If I recall the sampled piano was recorded at Abbey Road and has adjustable AR room ambiences.

I don't understand why this 'problem' has only come to light now. We went through a number of posts way back when the OP wanted help choosing the most appropriate mic options etc for the source sound.

Why was this selection back then not based on comparison to commercial classical releases if that was the end goal. It's too late now. If the source sound of a solo piano recording isn't 'right' there's not a lot you can do in 'mastering' to change it.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

This makes little sense. You cannot possibly take into account the EQ applied by listeners as they will differ wildly.

Just make it sound good on your headphones or monitors and let others figure out their own EQ adjustments if they want more bass, more treble or whatever.

This sounds a little convoluted to what was advised in an earlier post.

This falls back to a previous post about monitor headphones i was using that had a flat frequency response, and that i was finding it difficult to migrate to as opposed to hi fi headphones. I therfore mentioned the possibility of adding an EQ preset from inside Logic to add more coloration to the solo piano tracks i was working on, and the response was..

If you try and mix on something that has a designed-on deviation from a flat response you're more likely to end up with something that doesn't translate to many other listening systems as well.

And that a sampled piano has already had all the eq it needs. Adding a preset will just shift it away from the current balance.

It was also advised, Please DO NOT select a 'piano EQ' preset for your sampled piano recordings.

[RichardT]

This is getting a bit frustrating - if you want the best advice, you need to post your track and a reference track you like the sound of.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think we're confusing different parts of the process here and hence getting confusing advice.
As Richard says, the easiest way to get good advice is to share a sample of the music otherwise we're all playing a bit of guessing game.

[Hugh Robjohns]

If you try and mix on something that has a designed-on deviation from a flat response you're more likely to end up with something that doesn't translate to many other listening systems as well.

This is true and good advice under all circumstances.

And that a sampled piano has already had all the eq it needs. Adding a preset will just shift it away from the current balance.

It was also advised, Please DO NOT select a 'piano EQ' preset for your sampled piano recordings.

This advice was given quite a while ago in the context that you didn't know what you were doing, or how to judge eq requirements. In that setting the 'safe' option is to leave well alone and trust the sampled piano designers to have done a good job.

However, the full gamut of audio processing tools are always available for use when appropriate. The acquired skill is in knowing when, what, and how much processing to apply.

The suggestion to apply a mild and broad lower-mid eq dip to enhance 'clarity' is a common approach for busy mixes... and it might help here, but without hearing the source track its only a generic guess and in my experience may not be very helpful in a solo piano track.

[PianoPerson]

Yes, that would be my first thought.

There is a reason professional concert pianists still make recordings with acoustic pianos in nice acoustics.

Sampled pianos are amazingly good, but not the same.

I agree that this may well be the underlying issue. I own the Garritan CFX but rarely play it anymore and would be relucant to use it for solo piano recordings, depending a bit on the material.

I pretty much only use Pianoteq these days, mostly because it responds (and therefore sounds) like a real instrument, for example in the interaction between the strings, a crucial area in which even the best (and rather expensive) sampled pianos fall short. It's one important reason why they ultimately sound different from real-world recordings.

In my experience, the Garritan sounds very good with, say, Bach, but is seriously frustrating for music that relies heavily on the complex overtone resonances which a piano can produce, for example Chopin, Debussy, or any of the more recent 'Spectralist' composers. Pianoteq excels at this -- though given the choice (and budget), I'd still prefer a well-miked Steinway D in a nice-sounding space. Check out Phil Best's Pianoteq videos on Youtube -- I don't think there's currently a way you could make a sampled piano sound like that.

Since the recordings used by the OP are MIDI files, perhaps re-recording with Pianoteq might be an idea? The NY Steinway Prelude preset is wonderful. If necessary, the reverb can be extensively tweaked (the default settings are fairly dry), or turned off and replaced by an external plugin.

[RichardT]

I like Pianoteq too. For me there is just one sample library I've come across that is as usable - Noire by Native Instruments. Both have their own strengths. The proper response to velocity that Pianoteq has just can't be simulated by a sample libary, with its fixed velocity layers.

Changing between modelled and sampled pianos, and vice versa, is not to be undertaken lightly though, IME. It's probable that everything would need to be re-recorded, or at least heavily edited.

[DigitalMusicProduction]

This advice was given quite a while ago in the context that you didn't know what you were doing, or how to judge eq requirements. In that setting the 'safe' option is to leave well alone and trust the sampled piano designers to have done a good job.

The acquired skill is in knowing when, what, and how much processing to apply.

The suggestion to apply a mild and broad lower-mid eq dip to enhance 'clarity' is a common approach for busy mixes... 

And in my experience may not be very helpful in a solo piano track.

Thank you for refreshing my memory, i believe the advice given is absolutely correct, as mentioned the piano recordings sound great, i just considered adding some EQ to enhance a little clarity, but overall I'm pleased with the result. On the contrary it's now a joy to work with monitor headphones with a flat frequency, i now get to hear everything in the music that i never could with hi fi headphones, the transition took time, but well worth the result,

Thanks to everyone for your support.

[Nazard]

A quick snippet of your recording would be most welcome, please.

I have played the Yamaha CFX a number of times, and in concert, not the most common 'concert grand' of all time, but certainly one of the very best!

It's a very interesting sound. It has the top end that can cut through, like a Model D: a more intimate, almost Bechstein quality in the middle register, but with a massive lower end, slightly more muscular than the D. If I ever end up with the space needed, the CFX would be my piano of choice.

[PianoPerson]

For me there is just one sample library I've come across that is as usable - Noire by Native Instruments.

That's interesting; thanks for the tip. I've been tempted by Noire myself; the basic piano sound is lovely. You're right of course that changing piano VSTs can involve quite a bit of MIDI editing.