Belief in the Music we make

[Arpangel]

Please, all of you, just enjoy making your music, and stop theorising on this forum, I’m not doing anything, and I wish I had your enthusiasm.
I spent a lot of money restoring our piano, which has been played for about ten minutes since it came back.
My partner asked me why I don’t play it, I said "I just can’t be bothered" I really couldn’t think of any other reason to give.
If all I had was an i Pad with Garage Band that would be more than enough for me right now, and even that’s not getting used.
Time to have a stock take of my life, because if things get any worse, I’m not going to have the enthusiasm to get out of bed.

[Drew Stephenson]

I don't want to blow smoke up the proverbial Drew but I disagree with your conclusion. The finer points of engineering and musicianship are always up for discussion but heaven knows it's something we all work at. The Zukans and Elfs of this world leave most of us in the dust on the former and in addition to them there are more people still who can help the latter but you're certainly able to render worthy renditions of your musical works.

Maybe you didn't find the right A&R person, or whatever the equivalent is these days, but in terms of lyricism/storytelling my humble opinion is that you're right up there with the best of them and those strengths have enormous potential were you to be aligned with someone who can 'embrace and extend' such things as chord progressions

That's very kind of you to say Eddy.
You're wrong, but it's still very kind of you to say.

[RichardT]

Please, all of you, just enjoy making your music, and stop theorising on this forum, I’m not doing anything, and I wish I had your enthusiasm.
I spent a lot of money restoring our piano, which has been played for about ten minutes since it came back.
My partner asked me why I don’t play it, I said "I just can’t be bothered" I really couldn’t think of any other reason to give.
If all I had was an i Pad with Garage Band that would be more than enough for me right now, and even that’s not getting used.
Time to have a stock take of my life, because if things get any worse, I’m not going to have the enthusiasm to get out of bed.

Sounds like depression to me Tony. You should get yourself some help right away.

[OneWorld]

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them and hoping that they might work for a few other people along the way.
It does make things easier to understand your target market.

I think you speak for a lot of us there. And if the music we write hits the spot for ourselves at least, then it's mission accomplished. Just like the bloke on the next plot at the allotments always gets bigger marrows than I do, but, so what, mine taste ok to me, so that'll do.

I think there is a lot to be said for having the pragmatism to not be so delusional and just accept, at best our music might be 'OK' Once we have acknowledged that, and accept it as a very enjoyable and creative hobby, then the music has done its job, given us hours of entertainment.

I remember once listening to an interview with Quincy Jones who said he got 100's of demos each week. 75% he could bin straight away, the rest were 'OK' and every one in a blue moon one demo came along that was 'the one' He said he said there was loads of 'OK' music out there, well performed, well executed, good arrangement, good musicianship etc, but 'OK' isn't good enough.

I read that Taylor Swift dropped by a pub in Ireland last week where they had a singer writer doing his stuff, and Taylor Swift said to him "You're putting your 10,000 hours in then, and that's where we all begin" Seems all consummate professionals, even the gifted stars all have one thing in common, hard graft, and then some.

[tea for two]

I spent a lot of money restoring our piano, which has been played for about ten minutes since it came back.
My partner asked me why I don’t play it, I said "I just can’t be bothered" I really couldn’t think of any other reason to give.
If all I had was an i Pad with Garage Band that would be more than enough for me right now, and even that’s not getting used.

I recently purchased a sampler dual keyboard its from the 80s a Casio Dm100 because samplers do something for me and I couldn't fit a proper electric organ with pedalboard (limited space) so this dual keyboard Casio just the ticket.
Since it arrived over fortnight earlier I played it twice.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/193629214 ... 492436988/
https://www.matrixsynth.com/2007/08/cas ... 0.html?m=1
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HcwefVORISw

The issue is depending / relying overly on gear on an instrument, when we should rely on the Source of Inspiration (in various forms), the Source of Music.

[tea for two]

It wouldn't be possible for me to not believe in the music I make.

My take on this is that music is just a part of me. I never made a decision like 'I want to be a musician'. Things just happened. When I was a kid, there was a beat-up wood framed piano at home and I started messing about on it. Soon I was playing simple tunes on it.

For me never any question about doing music and related. It just unfolded that way.

I think if we are granted a fraction of a gift from the Source of Music then it becomes part of us and we can't help but make music and it would be throwing this gift back in the face of the Source of Music if we didn't make music.

::

I attended a Zoom talk from a person who worked in the Hollywood film music scene. She said that sometimes success in that business is down to who you know....
Other times it’s just dumb luck - being in the right place at the right time, having your track show up on the right desk exactly when a track like that is needed.
So do we control our destinies or are we just blown about by the winds of karma?

I have zero idea regards Karma as so many hit singles been manufactured marketed to hit a target audience.
Although the phrase : luck = preparation + grasping opportunities : seems to have struck a chord with me, even though I have failed miserably in this and continue to do so : I'm a happy loser lol.

::

I came to terms, a while back, that the reason I never got beyond my brief recording deal was that as a musician i'm simply not good enough.
So for me it's all about trying to write songs that are as good as I can get them and hoping that they might work for a few other people along the way.

I think you speak for a lot of us there. And if the music we write hits the spot for ourselves at least, then it's mission accomplished. Just like the bloke on the next plot at the allotments always gets bigger marrows than I do, but, so what, mine taste ok to me, so that'll do.

I think there is a lot to be said for having the pragmatism to not be so delusional and just accept, at best our music might be 'OK' Once we have acknowledged that, and accept it as a very enjoyable and creative hobby, then the music has done its job, given us hours of entertainment.

Wholeheartedly agree.
If the music we make means something to just one person even if this person is us then it has done what it was meant to.
This should be plenty to give us belief to keep on making music.
It's plenty for me.

[tea for two]

I remember once listening to an interview with Quincy Jones who said he got 100's of demos each week. 75% he could bin straight away, the rest were 'OK' and every one in a blue moon one demo came along that was 'the one' He said he said there was loads of 'OK' music out there, well performed, well executed, good arrangement, good musicianship etc, but 'OK' isn't good enough.

I can only guess those sending in demos to Quincy wanted a hit record, to get a record contract, be a music star.
In which instance it's undrestandible Quincy would be analytical, selective.

However when it is our Personal music, someone as Quincy's opinion means in Quincy's words jack sh*t .
As does anyone else's opinion.
We must keep this in mind.
Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

::

Moreover there's hundreds of styles of music around the world, someone as Quincy and anyone else for that matter is not even qualified in the slightest to pass any analysis on those styles.

::

Incidentally I would like to hear Quincy's personal music.
Not the hit singles he worked on, not the arrangements he did for Frank Sinatra.
As Quincy was a student of Nadia Boulanger did he apply Nadia's teachings to his personal music.

[Arpangel]

Thought this might be of interest, to this thread, vaguely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8CNhakfB7c

[Martin Walker]

Thought this might be of interest, to this thread, vaguely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8CNhakfB7c

I'm sure some of us can identify with that creative impasse Tony.

Martin

[Arpangel]

Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

I agree with some of this, to a degree, but I’d actually like other people to listen to, and enjoy my music, if that’s the case, the more people that listen to it is partly a judge of its success.
Whenever I’m making music, consciously or not, I’m thinking about the effect it’s going to have on the listener, I can’t help it, no matter how radical or left field it may be, it has to have a "musical" structure, it has to connect emotionally with someone, otherwise, it’s like painting a picture that only I can look at, or a book only I can read, you have to throw your work open to everyone, it’s interesting, to find out what people think, and what it means to "them" they are in the equation too.

[adrian_k]

I’m the opposite. The thought of anyone else listening to my music spoils it, takes it away from being engaging and meaningful to an exercise in doing something to entertain, which I have no interest in.

[Arpangel]

I’m the opposite. The thought of anyone else listening to my music spoils it, takes it away from being engaging and meaningful to an exercise in doing something to entertain, which I have no interest in.

IMO, music is engaging and musical "because" it connects with other people.
And we are all entertainers, whether we like it or not.
We need to be loved and appreciated, it’s a fact of life, some will hate what we do, and definitely won’t appreciate it, but that’s a fact of life also.
There are a lot of people that don’t write or record the first note, the main reason being they don’t want to be disliked, music is a reflection of who we are, and some people like us, some don’t.

[RichardT]

Our Personal music is beyond anyones judgement beyond anyones analysis.
Only we know why it is personal to us, only we know what we put into it.
Staying steadfast in this enables us to keep on making music personal to us, keep on believing in our music.

I agree with some of this, to a degree, but I’d actually like other people to listen to, and enjoy my music, if that’s the case, the more people that listen to it is partly a judge of its success.
Whenever I’m making music, consciously or not, I’m thinking about the effect it’s going to have on the listener, I can’t help it, no matter how radical or left field it may be, it has to have a "musical" structure, it has to connect emotionally with someone, otherwise, it’s like painting a picture that only I can look at, or a book only I can read, you have to throw your work open to everyone, it’s interesting, to find out what people think, and what it means to "them" they are in the equation too.

I agree with this. For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

[Arpangel]

I agree with this. For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

Yes, I’ve come across this view from a few people that I like, it seems quite common, it’s not obligatory, we’re all different, but to make or create something and not share it, is a bit puzzling to me.
I have a friend who plays piano, she won’t play in front of anyone, I really don’t care what she’s like, but she won’t play, I find that extremely weird, it just makes me more interested in hearing her play!

[adrian_k]

I think I maybe understand her point of view. When I talked earlier about whether my music was ‘engaging and meaningful’ I meant for me - I’m not concerned about other people’s thoughts on what I do, looking for anyone else’s approval is a bit tiresome really.

I’ve recorded very little as I like to improvise and I like the idea that when it’s gone it’s gone.

I have recorded the odd song, but that was more an exercise in getting something done than making a musical statement, I don’t feel ownership for the end result, they always seem lifeless and overworked.

Well we are all different! And I’m glad other people record music for me to listen to, so what kind of a hypocrite am I?

[paul tha other]

this subject strikes a chord with me..this was something that changed my attitude towards it..i have a little home setup and have access to a studio ..i used to record all my stuff at home apart from vocals(i lived in a flat and was way to self aware to sing at home)
one day i had gone into work early to record my vocals..i had a session booked at 6 so i went in at 4..set up my stuff ,did 5 or 6 takes and went into the control room to comp the vocal..after i had finished comping i was starting to get annoyed by the song to the point where i thought "this song is crap,its for the bin".
i hadnt noticed that the guy i had the 6 oclock session with had came in early and grabbed a seat at the back of the control room.
"how ya doing ? "he said.."whos that youre mixing?"
i replied its one of my own tunes but i really dont like it and now i hear it with the vocals in ,i think ill bin it...the guy ,who i respect massively as far as music is concerened looked at me as if i was stupid and said these words
"why do you care if you like it?"

since that day i stopped the internal dialoge the hinders my output..i see everything though to the end and let other people judge it.i cant judge it.im way to close to it

[Arpangel]

I like to improvise and I like the idea that when it’s gone it’s gone.

I'm torn, I’d like to be able to repeat my improvisations, but I can’t, I can’t write things down, which I’d like to have learnt to do.
On the other hand, and I don’t mean this flippantly, not being able to play anything again is a sure far way of staying fresh!

[Arpangel]

i cant judge it.im way to close to it

Very very true, but at the same time, self-criticism is essential, and judgement, when composing.

[ManFromGlass]

Interesting approach. I find all that stuff gets in the way of the music manifesting itself. I don’t mean to sound new-age-y but I need to shut up and get out of the way of the music showing up.
After the music is there then the mind takes over to get it to final mix unless it stands on it’s own, warts and all, or it’s a live performance once it’s finished it’s gone .. .

[MOF]

I’d like to be able to repeat my improvisations, but I can’t, I can’t write things down, which I’d like to have learnt to do.

Why don’t you leave your DAW in record all the time then keep the best bits?

[tea for two]

I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.

He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know

With people as this gotta be careful they don't knock your self belief.
Have to recognise bullying picking no matter if written on a lotus leaf.

::

Far more beneficial is to find things of note in anyones music then to encourage nurture this.

I like musicians as Robert Fripp because he would find something of note in anyones music.
Similarly JmJarre is always encouraging of others music whomever they are.
They build peoples self belief.

::

Could your "friend" handle anyone ripping him a new one on the music he makes?

Would your "friend" have the guts to criticise people's music to their face?
Liam Gallagher would headbutted him, NWA would b*tch slapped him. Miles Davis would lit a fire up his ar*e.

::

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.

[tea for two]

I need to shut up and get out of the way of the music showing up.
After the music is there then the mind takes over

I would say belief in our processes is as necessary as belief in our music.

::

For me, my music is for other people to enjoy. I enjoy the act of creating it very much, but I also enjoy releasing it into the wild.

For me this the difference between belief and confidence.

Belief to make the music we make, belief that the music we make would give something to someone.

Confidence to put our music out there no matter if it gets ripped to shreds by whomever.

::

When I talked earlier about whether my music was ‘engaging and meaningful’ I meant for me - I’m not concerned about other people’s thoughts on what I do, looking for anyone else’s approval is a bit tiresome really.

Yep. As soon as we couldn't give two hoots about other people's views on what we do, we can start to make the music we want to make.

Some or many may not get the music we make. That's alrighty, not everyone gets us as a person let alone our music.

Siouxsie and the Banshees were influential on some musicians, whereas several listeners just didn't get them.

::

this subject strikes a chord with me.. i was starting to get annoyed by the song to the point where i thought "this song is crap, its for the bin".
i hadnt noticed that the guy i had the 6 oclock session with had came in early and grabbed a seat at the back of the control room.
"how ya doing ? "he said.."whos that youre mixing?"
i replied its one of my own tunes... i think ill bin it...the guy ,who i respect massively as far as music is concerened looked at me as if i was stupid and said these words
"why do you care if you like it?"

since that day i stopped the internal dialoge the hinders my output..i see everything though to the end and let other people judge it.i cant judge it.im way to close to it

I think we tend to knock our self belief far too easily.

Playing our completed music to xyz that we trust to get a feel for their views is something I do too.

One of my favourite aspects of SoS magazine was when listeners sent in their tapes to be reviewed for how they could be improved.

I've saved all my crap I did over decade earlier.
Since August this year I re-listened to them.
Some of it I still think is crap after over a decade break from them and with hindsight.
Some of the crap I finished into completed pieces as they weren't crap they just required a fresh ear which such a long break from them gave me.

::

[Arpangel]

I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.

He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know

With people as this gotta be careful they don't knock your self belief.
Have to recognise bullying picking no matter if written on a lotus leaf.

::

Far more beneficial is to find things of note in anyones music then to encourage nurture this.

I like musicians as Robert Fripp because he would find something of note in anyones music.
Similarly JmJarre is always encouraging of others music whomever they are.
They build peoples self belief.

::

Could your "friend" handle anyone ripping him a new one on the music he makes?

Would your "friend" have the guts to criticise people's music to their face?
Liam Gallagher would headbutted him, NWA would b*tch slapped him. Miles Davis would lit a fire up his ar*e.

::

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.

I have a friend who is a song writer, he’s extremely critical of other people, rarely himself, but he’s not arrogant in any way, exactly the opposite.

He is one of the most respected and talented musicians I know

With people as this gotta be careful they don't knock your self belief.
Have to recognise bullying picking no matter if written on a lotus leaf.

::

Far more beneficial is to find things of note in anyones music then to encourage nurture this.

I like musicians as Robert Fripp because he would find something of note in anyones music.
Similarly JmJarre is always encouraging of others music whomever they are.
They build peoples self belief.

::

Could your "friend" handle anyone ripping him a new one on the music he makes?

Would your "friend" have the guts to criticise people's music to their face?
Liam Gallagher would headbutted him, NWA would b*tch slapped him. Miles Davis would lit a fire up his ar*e.

::

Easy to pick on others art it is bullying ... any numpty can do this, social media is full of such numptys. They chip away at a person's self belief.

No one, is beyond criticism.
Truth, can be hard to hear.
Liam Gallagher? he was seen in my neighbourhood a few times, we saw no evidence of his "public persona" that’s all I’ve got to say.

[tea for two]

No one, is beyond criticism.
Truth, can be hard to hear.
Liam Gallagher? he was seen in my neighbourhood a few times, we saw no evidence of his "public persona" that’s all I’ve got to say.

Liam lol he's mellowed since his mid90s when he was ready to headbutt.
Hampstead Heath I wanted to photograph Kingfishers only photographed the Owls.

Truth is one of the most subjective things.
People express opinions, some will peddle as truth... it is nothing of the sort, just as ar*es everyone has an opinion.

Criticism is a word that riles people.
Constructive beneficial analysis is preferable.
When someone says oh you can't handle criticism, say to them :
no you are just being a div a tw*t, you are bullying picking, why don't you try to offer Constructive beneficial analysis if you have the capability or would you like me to pick on you?

Really the World has so many people willing to knock our self belief.
Gotta keep shields up else get crushed.