cycling noise being caused by Broadband modem, help needed..

[pax-eterna]

I have noticed (with the new studio monitors -Eris 5's) that I am getting a cycling low pitched tapping - t.t.t.t.t.t.t.t.t.t.t that's about the best way I can describe it. it doesn't get louder when the spkr vol is turned up it stays pretty much the same and is relatively quiet, it's just there. Although it CAN be random. Sometimes it is there all the time and others, not a sound to be heard.

At first I thought it was the power supply as it went away when the modem pwr was disconnected. But it turns out it is the ethernet cables attached to the modem, particularly the one going to the PC (Intel NUC 8i7).

afaik, the ethernet cables to the modem are not shielded? And tbh, I wouldn't have a clue if they were or were not, soooo, question is would a shielded (if such a thing exists) ethernet (cat5?) cable help here?

Thanks

[Nazard]

Yes, you can buy shielded Cat5e cable, it's called Shielded Twisted Pair CAT5e, or, STP CAT5e.

You could also remove the cable between the NUC and modem/router and use wireless internet, if the modem/router has it and which the NUC supports. That might tell you whether the cable is the culprit.

The NUC is powered via a separate switched mode power supply and isn't grounded, so the issue may be a grounding one, called a 'ground loop'. This is the likeliest cause of the issue you describe.

[merlyn]

But it turns out it is the ethernet cables attached to the modem, particularly the one going to the PC (Intel NUC 8i7).

How did you determine that? I would guess you unplugged the network cable and the noise went away.

The noise may also go away if you unplug the connection between interface and monitors.

By talking about shielding you're imagining the interference is going through the air. It might be, but it probably isn't; it's more likely to be a loop of some sort, requiring both the network cable and the connection between the monitors and interface (computer).

Which connections are balanced, and which are unbalanced?

[Hugh Robjohns]

^ Yep.. my thoughts too. This is likely to be a ground-loop issue affecting the monitor speakers / interface.

[Drew Stephenson]

Is the t.t.t.t.t. noise at a fixed frequency or does it vary at all?
Just wondering if there might be a clocking thing going on.

[pax-eterna]

Thanks folks, and apologies for late reply - I am in Oz so time differences apply...I am up now at 2.50am to try and respond in a more appropo time for you.
@blinddrew fixed frequency

@merlyn yes exactly, I simply unplugged and re-plugged, and all connections are balanced.

@Trevor Johnson - yes it is a separate PS, however I did not have this issue with former monitors? I think that might be the answer (re running wireless) .

Can this grounding loop (and I am happy to go with the consensus ) be random? I did notice yesterday afternoon, after all the "faffing" around, that the noise simply vanished. Only to re-appear this morning...but I will try the wireless and see what happens.

Thanks again for your (collective) time guys (gals?) appreciate it!

[merlyn]

@merlyn yes exactly, I simply unplugged and re-plugged, and all connections are balanced.

I see. That's slightly annoying, because balanced connections are meant to solve these sorts of problems.

This is then the floating earth problem because the PC is plugged into a DC power supply. I don't completely get that, but my own model of what's happening is that the NUC and the modem don't agree where earth (0V) is.

If it was me I would try an isolating transformer, where I would suggest an Orchid Electronics one if you were in the UK, but since you're in Oz -- an ART clean box or similar.

... but I will try the wireless and see what happens.

More of a workaround than a solution, but sure, it's likely to work.

[pax-eterna]

thanks Merlyn - I'll check out isolating transformers!

EDIT: haha, very expensive devices! I might just stick with WI-FI - that costs me nothing!

[merlyn]

I don't think they're hugely expensive :

https://www.storedj.com.au/art-pro-audi ... eliminator

but using Wi-Fi is cheaper.

There is another solution to this which is earthing the interface -- I'll leave that to someone else to explain.

[Drew Stephenson]

Have we established if there's no solid earth in the system?

[merlyn]

As far as I can make out :

Monitors -- plugged into the wall -- earthed
PC -- PSU -- not earthed
Modem -- PSU -- not earthed

Because the PC is running on a PSU, this seems like 'laptop-itis' to me. A ground loop without a ground is a bit too Zen for me.

[Drew Stephenson]

But the monitors are Eris 5s, which are type 1 so should be providing an earth for the system?

[merlyn]

But the monitors are Eris 5s, which are type 1 so should be providing an earth for the system?

In a classic ground loop there are two (or more) paths to earth. Take a PC plugged into the wall, and active monitors, also plugged into the wall. There are two paths to earth. Join the two together with an audio connection and the audio connection completes the loop. There is now a loop with a tiny resistance, so a tiny voltage can induce a current.

There have been posts from people with laptops where the problem is the lack of a solid ground. I don't understand why balanced connections don't fix that.

The problem here seems more like a lack of ground problem, because there aren't two paths to ground to make the classic loop, and balanced connections haven't fixed it.

@pax-eterna -- just checking -- the leads from interface to monitors are TRS plugs or XLRs?

[Drew Stephenson]

There have been posts from people with laptops where the problem is the lack of a solid ground. I don't understand why balanced connections don't fix that.

If there's no ground in the system at all then balanced connections won't make any difference?

The problem here seems more like a lack of ground problem, because there aren't two paths to ground to make the classic loop, and balanced connections haven't fixed it.

But we've established that the monitors are grounded, so it shouldn't be a lack of ground problem. Even if just the monitors are grounded you can still create a loop of ground > monitor 1 > interface > monitor 2 > ground.

[merlyn]

But we've established that the monitors are grounded, so it shouldn't be a lack of ground problem. Even if just the monitors are grounded you can still create a loop of ground > monitor 1 > interface > monitor 2 > ground.

Sure, but what closes the loop is the network cable.

[jjlonbass]

UTP Ethernet cables such as Cat 5, 5e or 6 have nothing that should be connected to earth, so no opportunity for a loop. All signals in such an Ethernet cable are differential (balanced if you like) and are supposed to be transformer isolated at each end.

All of this means that it would be very surprising for an Ethernet connection to be the root cause of this sort of interference.

John

[N i g e l]

UTP Ethernet cables such as Cat 5, 5e or 6 have nothing that should be connected to earth, so no opportunity for a loop. All signals in such an Ethernet cable are differential (balanced if you like) and are supposed to be transformer isolated at each end.

All this means that it would be very surprising for an Ethernet connection to be the root cause of this sort of interference.

John

I totally agree. The ethernet chip networks to the outside world via "magnetics" ie a signal transformer.
A LAN cable can be 100m long and needs to operate across different ground domains ie - equipment on different mains sockets or in different buildings using a different phase of the mains & earth.

[Drew Stephenson]

Getting back to the OP, I'd start by stripping the system right back to the essentials then re-introduce one element at a time. Start with just the laptop, interface and headphones, then add one monitor speaker, then the other, then any additional elements (including the network connection) one at time.
Identifying which one is causing the issue should help identify the actual problem.
Also check the clocking.

[merlyn]

Start with just the laptop, interface and headphones ...

In case the OP wonders which laptop -- it's not a laptop. It's an Intel NUC 8i7 which runs on a laptop-like power supply.

I would think what you've suggested is a good idea.

[Drew Stephenson]

Start with just the laptop, interface and headphones ...

In case the OP wonders which laptop -- it's not a laptop. It's an Intel NUC 8i7 which runs on a laptop-like power supply.

My bad!

[ef37a]

https://www.onlogic.com/uk-en/nc100-50/ ... BsEALw_wcB

That NUC has a shielded Ethernet port but I cannot ever remember seeing a shielded port on a modem and I have had about 8! Then, as mentioned, does the PSU pass mains ground? Laptops used to always have shielded port in my experience (and desktops always?) but my Lenovo i7 does not. If an FTP patch cable is not grounded at at least one end it is going to become a super aerial!

Building to building earth currents are I understand a big problem with shielded Ethernet and fibre has replaced much of it?

Dave.