Mastering: Prices and Results

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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Radiophonic wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:07 pmSo would you say that getting someone to consult me on my mix might be the best bang for the buck?

Yes.

How to find an adquate engineer?

Through places like this. I could suggest several great tutors in the UK. Some may be willing to work via zoom or similar online.

A mastering engineer has ideally the option to use analog gear, to give the customer a result that is not possible in a homestudio enviroment.

Plenty of home studios combine analogue gear. And you can apply analogue gear at the mix stage where it is just as -- if not more -- useful than in mastering. But there is a lot of hype about analogue gear and at best it's only the icing on the cake. if you don't get the cake mix recipe right the icing won't make it taste any better!
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

I am not a native speaker. In english I would prefer sending the mixdown and getting notes back. Is this practical? Apart from the technical competence intergrity is important for me.

I sense a hestiancy talking about numbers, may I ask why?
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by RichardT »

Radiophonic wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:31 pm I am not a native speaker. In english I would prefer sending the mixdown and getting notes back. Is this practical? Apart from the technical competence intergrity is important for me.

I sense a hestiancy talking about numbers, may I ask why?

I don’t think there is hesitancy, it’s more that it’s down to the mixing tutor to set their own rates. We don’t know what those rates are going to be…
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

I see. The best approach might be to look at the work of a particular mixer who offers this type of service and check if their work jives with the material I work with.

If someone here knows someone who'd do a mix consultation for me that would be useful information. Since a real life consultation is in all likelyhood not going to happen I'd prefer someone who is willing to listen to the mix and send me his notes.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Zukan »

We have a number of tutors here and we all offer a free initial consultation to determine what the potential students needs are and whether both student and teacher gel together.

Alternatively, you could book a mastering engineer and sit in on the mastering session.

To determine which mastering engineer would suit your needs it's best to check their personal sites as they will invariably have a show-reel resume or can point you to content they have mastered.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

Do you have a link for further information?
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Kwackman »

He's too modest!
Zukan can be found here....
https://theaudioproductionhub.pivotshare.com/home
From personal experience, very knowledgeable and a very nice bloke.

I know the Elf is also highly recommended round these parts, so look for a post by him in this thread and click on his profile.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Mike Stranks »

The Elf's details here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/memb ... e&u=145182

... and his name is Paul... :)

I know both Paul and Zukan (Eddie) personally and recommend them without reservation. Not only do they really know what they are talking about, they are both thoroughly nice guys. They'll tell you the truth and make suggestions without making you feel embarrassed or put down in any way.

... and, of course, there's also 'Mix Rescue'; a regular feature in the magazine.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/mix-rescue

Contact the magazine editorial staff for more details.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

Thank you very much. I will write that down, so I know where to go as soon as I feel i am done with the mix on a project that is important to me.

Anyone who has more suggestions feel free to add them with a link. Thank you.

It seems to be common practice to do this kind of stuff with video/audio connection. That's not for me. Is requesting notes of what issues lie at hand a plausible direction to take?

I am currently working on my mixing competition submisson, as I have stated. I will not post it here because it is not a serious attempt.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Sam Spoons »

If this is for a mixing competition surely it has to be you own work not something guided/mixed by a professional?
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

Yes, of course. I would submit my mix first and then post it here.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Sam Spoons »

:thumbup:
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

Before you listen to this:
This project I worked on for fun and to try out new techniques/equipment. It is not a serious represantation of what I normally do, and I post it here for fun. Im saying this, because I dont want to waste your time with something silly like this.

That being said, it took so long to get my submission to the remix competition approved, because I did this parody:

https://vimeo.com/665270188

Since this parody was not accepted I sent them a version with the vocal stem of the original and that did work for them:

https://vimeo.com/666366136

Since a topic that came up in this thread was the importance of a proper mix vs mastering I would like to ask you this:

Why, if there is a step like mastering, is there any porcessing on the mixbus at all (lets say in a rock mix). Where is the line between mixbus-processing and mastering?
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by tomeh »

Thoughts on Radiophonics Points;

1/ To be able to Master requires a playback system and room that can be trusted by being as transparent as possible, in complete control (including the wild west of bass), the lowest possible introduced distortion and at a reasonable level for peaks of the mix.

2/ So, ask to hear and see their playback system. Ask how they know that it is accurate, are there tests, results, calibration? Ask for a playback of one of your tracks and hear how it compares to your mixing playback system. Is it everything as stated in 1/ ? It should be immediately clear that details can be heard with clarity compared to your mixing playback system and experience.

3/ Pricing is challenging for those doing the Mastering. What do they have invested to meet part 1/ ? What is a reasonable payback on this investment? What is a reasonable hourly amount for their skill set?

4/ How well they shopped for their playback system and room, or what is the performance versus cost ratio of the Mastering system might allow them to be more competitive but only if what you verified in part 2/ is good?

5/ How to evaluate their skill set and whether or not it is justified in the cost might be checked by asking to hear some mixes before Mastering and then their Mastered versions. Ask for a similar style to your own mixes.

If you can't visit the Mastering facility because of distance, health restrictions or other, then what is the next best?

Ask them to send you a sample as per 5/ and play them back on the very best system that is available to you and the very best headphones.

Ask them if they would take a small amount of time to take a small portion of one of your mixes to demonstrate on? People who have the time, money, equipment and knowledge invested to do this usually have a well deserved pride in their work and would be happy to give you a sample similar to your work or take some time to demo part of one of your actual mixes.

And as always, if you don't have a playback system equal to that described in 1/, how could you possibly know that your mix is at it's best?

After all that creative work to get to the mixed stage and then roll the dice on not knowing this is something I could never understand.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Radiophonic wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:27 pmWhy, if there is a step like mastering, is there any porcessing on the mixbus at all (lets say in a rock mix). Where is the line between mixbus-processing and mastering?

It all depends on what you see as the role of mastering.

In the 'good old days' mastering was fundamentally about two things. 1) Taking a bunch of superbly mixed and finished tracks recorded and mixed at different times and in different places, and tweaking them very slightly to give an homengenous sound so they sounded like they belonged together as a complete album, with consistent and appropriate relative levels, and similar tonalities.

And 2), it was also about the dealing with the technical aspects of taking that album and making a viable disk master for pressing vinyls or CDs, or duplicating cassettes or whatever.

In my view, what goes into mastering, ideally, should be the finished mix, and that may well require the application of various mix bus processes, like compression, limiting or whatever. Ideally, again, it should be the mix engineer (with the producer/band) that decides what the final mix sounds like long before it goes anywhere near the mastering room. For me, the mastering engineer's job is to get that track onto the release medium in the best possible way. End of story.

However, increasingly we live in a world where no one wants to make decisions... so it has become fashionable to record a dozen mics in front of an amp instead of one so 'the sound' can be decided 'later'. And stems are sent to mastering engineers so the 'mix engineer' doesn't have to make those decisions either...

So to answer your question... the line is wherever you want it to be.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results, it’

Post by RichardT »

Hugh is right - there is no right or wrong here.

There are two competing forces, as I see it.

The first is, it’s important to give the mastering engineer something that’s as good as you can make it. That’s the best way of realising your vision for the piece.

The second is, adding two sets of master-bus dynamics processing may give a worse result than adding one (the mastering engineer’s). Pretty much any dynamics processing added to the master bus does affect the sound in some negative ways, as well as positive ways of course. EQ changes are more benign.

If the dynamics processing required on the master bus, to my ears, needs to be very light, I tend to leave it off and the mastering engineer deal with it. I have to say his dynamics processing is usually better than anything I can do, which is down to both the gear he has available and his skill in doing this (it’s what he’s specialised in doing for many years, of course).

So if everything in a mix sounds good apart from a little integration being missing, or some elements needing a little ‘taming’, I’ll leave it to him. This is actually what I do most of the time,
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

There is a fundamental difference between mixing into a bus compressor, and using a compressor over a mix to rein in the dynamics.

The first can only be done by the mix engineer (unless stems are provided, in which case the mastering engineer is also the mix engineer).
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by RichardT »

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:39 pm There is a fundamental difference between mixing into a bus compressor, and using a compressor over a mix to rein in the dynamics.

The first can only be done by the mix engineer (unless stems are provided, in which case the mastering engineer is also the mix engineer).

Yes, that’s correct. Personally I don’t do that, though many people do.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by RichardT »

. And as always, if you don't have a playback system equal to that described in 1/, how could you possibly know that your mix is at it's best?

This is a genuine issue. The short answer is - your mix is very unlikely to be as good as it could be, but that’s unavoidable unless you have access to high end equipment in a wonderful room.

There’s not much point worrying about this. All you can do is optimise your equipment and room within the limits of your budget - but I would qualify that by saying some people think there is a certain minimum level of quality that you need to produce acceptable mixes. Mike Senior covers this in some depth in his ‘Mixing Secrets’ book. He reckons you need to spend £2500 or so on monitors and room treatment to produce acceptable mixes reliably.

Not everyone will agree with that, but it certainly matches my own experiences. I’ve progressed from cheapish monitors in an untreated room, to much better monitors in a reasonably well treated (though still imperfect) room. The difference between what I can hear now to what I could hear then is night and day. Things leap out from the mix now as needing attention, and I can actually hear what is going on now in my own and reference mixes, not just at the lower end but across the whole frequency spectrum.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Good point. Obviously it depends on the level you're working at.

If its for fun, friends and family precision and accuracy are less important and you can work quite happily with modest budget gear.

But if its a professional money-earning business then there certainly is a minimum standard requirement. Prices rise while cheaper products improve all the time, so setting a €£$ benchmark is difficult, but I'd agree that real monitors justifying the name all currently cost over £2k... but would be operating sub-optimally without well designed and implemented acoustic treatment.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

Thank you, for the response. I am positivly suprised by the thorough and well mannered replies I get in this forum.

tomeh wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 am Thoughts on Radiophonics Points;

1/ [...] Master(ing) requires a (transparent) playback system and room [...]

2/ [...] Ask how they know that it is accurate, are there tests, results, calibration? [...]

3/ [...]What do they have invested [...]
reasonable payback on this investment? reasonable hourly amount for their skill set?

[...]

5/ [...]asking to hear some mixes before Mastering and then their Mastered versions.[...]

This is very practical advice. I have taken notes and think this is a reasonable and thoughout approach.

tomeh wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 amAsk them if they would take a small amount of time to take a small portion of one of your mixes to demonstrate on?

I would not have thought of that. I think I will record a little demonstration piece in the spirit of the album I am currently in pre production. This allows me to share my work openly without being uncomfortable with openly uploading something prerelease. This will make it easier to get an evalutation what kind of service would be best in my case (mixing, consulting or mastering)

tomeh wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:26 amAnd as always, if you don't have a playback system equal to that described in 1/, how could you possibly know that your mix is at it's best?

That is a good point. I do have a very nicely treated room and decent lower end monitors. All I could do is compare the mix to commercial releases in the same genre as well as doing that on different HiFi setups and my monitoring headphones and also check on visualizers if anything is very off. Not optimal, although it could be alot worse in my case. Since a superb slick mix for the type of stuff I do is not as critical as it may be for other styles I might be able to pull something off with what I have, that works well enough.

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:47 am [...]

In my view, what goes into mastering, ideally, should be the finished mix, and that may well require the application of various mix bus processes, like compression, limiting or whatever. Ideally, again, it should be the mix engineer (with the producer/band) that decides what the final mix sounds like long before it goes anywhere near the mastering room. For me, the mastering engineer's job is to get that track onto the release medium in the best possible way. End of story.

[...]

So to answer your question... the line is wherever you want it to be.

I see. Would you say that the less experienced a mixer is the more advisable it is to go for a conservative approach on the mixbus?

RichardT wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:14 pm If the dynamics processing required on the master bus, to my ears, needs to be very light, I tend to leave it off and the mastering engineer deal with it.

Good to know. In general I get the idea if there are very deliberate steps you want to take on the mixbus it should be applied. If the dynamics are working well enough and there is no clear vision its better to leave it for the mastering engineer to deal with it.

Hugh Robjohns wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:39 pm There is a fundamental difference between mixing into a bus compressor, and using a compressor over a mix to rein in the dynamics.

That is a good point. Starting the mix with mixbus processing is a fundemantely different approach.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Kwackman »

This month's video from Mr. Inglis might be worth watching.
Question 1 is maybe relevant ;)
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... your-music
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by Radiophonic »

Kwackman wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:57 pm This month's video from Mr. Inglis might be worth watching.
Question 1 is maybe relevant ;)
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... your-music

Yes, I was about to post it. Mr Inglis videos are my favorite of the SOS youtube channel. Very comfy, informative and funny. His point is that the point where you question whether or not you even need a master is the point you are ready for one. Which must be quite sobering form the perspective of mastering engineers.

Another point I want to stress that the audio interface is critical as well for decent monitoring. Switched not to too long ago and the difference shocked me.
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Re: Mastering: Prices and Results

Post by RichardT »

Radiophonic wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:19 pm
Kwackman wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:57 pm This month's video from Mr. Inglis might be worth watching.
Question 1 is maybe relevant ;)
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... your-music

Yes, I was about to post it. Mr Inglis videos are my favorite of the SOS youtube channel. Very comfy, informative and funny. His point is that the point where you question whether or not you even need a master is the point you are ready for one. Which must be quite sobering form the perspective of mastering engineers.

Another point I want to stress that the audio interface is critical as well for decent monitoring. Switched not to too long ago and the difference shocked me.

I think mastering engineers are fine with that. In my experience the better the mix the happier they are - because they have the potential to deliver a high quality product.

Yes, audio interfaces can make a big difference, particularly if the one you’re replacing is from an earlier generation.
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