X32 Remote - router suggestions

[Humf]

I’m need to remotely control my X32 rack using the X-live app running on a laptop. I normally connect my macbook using a short ethernet cable because I’m positioned next to the rack.

For this job I’ll be approx 50m away. Frustratingly I’ll be very close to my SD8 stagebox will be connected to the rack via aes50. Unless I’m mistaken, there’s no way of using the same Cat5e to also control the x32 from this stage position.

I think need a cheap but reliable WiFi router. I could perhaps just take my home one (EE) but would rather have something dedicated I think.

I’m quite new to this equipment so apologies for any glaring errors and thanks in advance for suggestions.

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[AlecSp]

You're right - you can't use the AES50 stagebox cable for remote control.

Ideally, you'd run a second cat5 cable back to the mix position and have the AP there.

Any wireless AP/router (I'll use the terms interchangeably here, even though they're not the same thing) will struggle at 50m, especially with a load of punters with their own mobile devices between you and the router. You may be fine at soundcheck, but then find it all falls apart during the show.

You're also right to aim for a cheap router - your limit is typically the limit on power that is set for all devices in the UK. Also, even if you had a super-power illegal AP, comms is 2-way, so your mobile device would never be able to "reach" back to it. The biggest benefit you'll get is to get the AP as high as possible.

I've used cheap TalkTalk routers with rock-solid performance, and you can pick them up from eBay for very little. You'll get plenty of people telling you to buy the brand of router that they use but, honestly, pretty much all of them will do the same job. Definitely no need to pay silly money.

Dual band routers are always recommended as the 5GHz band is typically much less congested than the 2.4GHz band. That said, 5GHz falls off much more sharply with distance and obstructions. I'd still recommend a dual band router (though anything in recent years normally is anyway) for resilience - and no additional cost.

Get a cheap router. Experiment with location and learn its distance limitations, firstly with no punters, and then with a full house. And always have a wired solution available for when (not if) wireless lets you down.

[Humf]

Many thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. Thanks also to mods for moving my post into the right place - sorry.

A few questions ...

AP = access point?

Height - the rack will actually be placed high up (5m?) on a balcony at the rear of the building looking down at the performance space. Clear line of sight. So I have that advantage.

2.4/5ghz - I’d been thinking about this already. I often use a number of wireless lavs (fairly cheap Comica) and find the 2.4g congestion from audiences problematic. Normally resolved by adding height above heads. So I was thinking the option of having 5g would help but didn’t know about distance being a trade off. That’s a concern, although I guess mix control is less critical than mic signal if dropouts occur. Would be highly annoying still though.

Given the fact I have about 4 days to prepare and tons of other stuff to do, I’m now thinking a hard wired solution is preferable. Looks like I can pickup a 50m Cat5e for about £30 and easily lx tape it to the aes50 cable, which I have to run around the perimeter anyway...

The main thing is not being able to predict the WiFi response when 200 odd people turn up with iPhones in pockets..

Cheers

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[DGL.]

I suppose if a mesh style Wi-Fi network is not an option for getting the range, then assuming you cane mke sure all the sockets used are on the same phase then the powerline W-Fi adaptors could be an option, for home use I've had good experiences with the TP-Link stuff when I have had the need to get Wi-Fi to outbuildings and they do now do 5Ghz AC units.

And naturally if you are going to be mixing form a fixed loaction, and there is suitable power on the right phase then you can always go wired to the laptop as the Wi-Fi powerline boxes all seem to have at least one Ethernet socket.

[James Perrett]

If you can't run a cable then I would strongly suggest looking at the Ubiquiti range of access points with a high gain antenna. We used a Ubiquiti Bullet as an access point with an 11dBi antenna which regularly gave use 5-600m line of sight range to a standard power wifi device. On one occasion we saw a 2km range.

Since the directions between the stations won't be changing you could use a more directional antenna like a patch antenna to give you a better signal.

However, a cable is likely to be simpler and more reliable.

[Humf]

I suppose if a mesh style Wi-Fi network is not an option for getting the range, then assuming you cane mke sure all the sockets used are on the same phase then the powerline W-Fi adaptors could be an option, for home use I've had good experiences with the TP-Link stuff when I have had the need to get Wi-Fi to outbuildings and they do now do 5Ghz AC units.

And naturally if you are going to be mixing form a fixed loaction, and there is suitable power on the right phase then you can always go wired to the laptop as the Wi-Fi powerline boxes all seem to have at least one Ethernet socket.

Ah yes. I hadn’t thought of this solution. Sounds good, but having written it all down on here, I’m now realising I’ve been a bit daft. Wherever possible I use cable for video and audio so why wouldn’t I here...

I think I was getting a little carried away having see folk mixing remotely on their iPads. Maybe one for the future if the need arises.

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[Humf]

However, a cable is likely to be simpler and more reliable.

see my previous post.

PS. I had come across Ubiquiti mentioned in my various searches on recommended routers. Not a brand I was familiar with until now.

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[Sam Spoons]

Why can't you set the X32 Rack up next to the stagebox? What is the need/advantage for setting it up 50m away?

[Humf]

Brace yourself.

The X32 provides an audio mix for a livestream, with 6-8 mics feeding the rack and then main outs running into a video switcher.

I have various items all built into a 3U rack including switcher, x32, various video signal converters, a multiview monitor, power etc. All self-contained and patched for a very reliable and portable setup at remote locations, that have no installed system. I’ve been using it for a year or so and very happy. My niche has become providing live-streams from historic buildings (churches, abbeys, civic buildings, old historic hotels etc.) that often have either no broadband or at most a connection you wouldn’t rely on.

The camera setup for this job is fairly simple with two fixed cameras but both positioned at the rack end of the building. One is next to the rack, on a balcony looking down at the performance (SATB choir, organ, lectern, pulpit etc) however the other is positioned a considerable distance above this position, in a bell ringing chamber. The switcher prog’ out will only switch to this cam at the end of the performance and capture the bells ringing for 30 mins afterwards.

Two further aspects make this job unique. First I am both videographer and organist. Not something I encourage but very occasionally ‘needs must’. With both cams being fixed and (most) audio levels being set during rehearsal, it’s just about possible and has worked before. My need for control of the x32 is largely for reducing the number of mics open at any one time and for general peace of mind if anything needs attention on the fly. But all being well, there should be the minimum amount of mixing required during the stream.

The second (and probably most troublesome) aspect is the complete lack of any broadband or WiFi or cellular network coverage in the building and very little outside for that matter. It’s a 12th C church set in a dip in the hillside. What fun! However the nearest cellular mast is only 1km away, high up on the hillside and the church has some ‘sweetspots’ where my cellular bonding device (hooray to the people at LiveU) can achieve about 7.5Mbps upload. As you’ve probably guessed, these spots aren’t at ground level. One of them is actually just outside the ringing chamber on a exterior balcony.

So the West end has... 2 cams and my cellular coverage. Theres no way I can then run these feeds to the stage end. Distances will be far greater and even if within the max tolerances for SDI, I’d be out of cables for 3 runs. The East end has all the audio action happening. Whichever way around I do this involves long cable runs. Through experience of many similar jobs, I’ve developed greater confidence in taking the video to the network (SDI) rather than bringing the network to the video (cat). However, I have no technical basis for this, and it maybe more to do with being better equipped with SDI reels than I am ethernet cable and routers. The only decent length I own is a 75m Cat5e I use for the SD8. I’m certainly not a network guy so that’s another reason I prefer SDI runs as far as possible. They just work....

To answer your question, I could reverse the x32 and the stage box, with the stage box being used to provide an audio return to the switcher. But quite frankly I’m tired of stripping down my rack setup and once it’s all setup, tested and been out on a number of jobs, it’s a higher risk solution to then remove components and split them off. Also, a stage box is perfectly discreet and ideal for the minimum amount of space I have up at the stage end.

It’s all fun.

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[Mike Stranks]

As a fellow 'on location' live-streamer I found that a fascinating read Humf.

Thanks!

[Humf]

I thought of you as I wrote it Mike. Glad to hear yours went well.

One day I hope to have a reliable partner in crime. Working on that. He’s currently only 10 yrs old so it’ll take time

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[Mike Stranks]

I thought of you as I wrote it Mike. Glad to hear yours went well.

One day I hope to have a reliable partner in crime. Working on that. He’s currently only 10 yrs old so it’ll take time

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I found that there was a purple-patch between the ages of about 12 and 15. After that my two who showed any interest at all just drifted away...

Although fair-does to my daughter, who when she knew I had an important and high-profile gig to do when I was still in the early stages of recovering from my breakdown, came to help at the age of 22.

[James Perrett]

One day I hope to have a reliable partner in crime. Working on that. He’s currently only 10 yrs old so it’ll take time

The same age as mine. He's learning the skills but applying them in rather a random (but often interesting) way.

[Mike Stranks]

Can we explore this a bit further please?

I, too, am sometimes asked to provide livestreams from churches that just about have electricity and one tap in the flower vestry! Typically for funerals in these restricted-attendance COVID times.

If there's no broadband router within about 50 metres - I have a long Cat6 cable - at the moment I say that I can't do it, and video-record and upload to YouTube asap.

Could James/Humf explain in simple terms how I might be able to use, for instance, the Ubiquiti products that have been mentioned?

I'm streaming at 720, 25fps to make the most of bandwidth and to ensure that I don't have visible dropped frames or audio glitches. Quality is good with those parameters.

From what I've read in the thread, it seems that what's being suggested is to use a 4G signal captured direct from a mast via a high-gain antenna. Or have I misunderstood? Words of one syllable please as to how one goes about doing a decent livestream with no broadband router access.

Thanks!

[DGL.]

As I gather you use a mobile router (3g/4g/5g) placed where it gets the best signal (with a proper external antenna where possible) and then use whatever transmission medium from it you desire, be that via a wired or wireless link, noting that the wireless link may need repeaters or directional antenna to get the range. Naturally you'll need a package that gives you enough data as streaming video will eat through data at a good rate.

Narrowboaters have experience with mobile routers and external antenna as the metal boats act as good RF attenuators so having an aerial outside is very much necessary in a lot of cases.
i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC3Bq2QcZNM

[Humf]

Hi Mike

I’ll offer what I can but it’s been a very steep learning curve and I’m only really on the foothills.

First and foremost, I quickly realised that you cannot rely on any shared network, or any single network or any network that you don’t have a decent admin control over. This pretty much applies to every venue I visit.

I also needed to find a solution for places that simply have no existing broadband connection whatsoever. This led me to network bonding. These encoders use the connections from mixed sources (ethernet, WiFi, 4G LTE) and combine them into a single, more robust connection. Eg. one of the sources can dip or fall over completely and the connection is maintained. Or in the case of many buildings I visit, each 4G connection may give me 1-2Mbps upload but combined I get 4Mbps.

There are a number of such products on the market from manufacturers like Teradek but after plenty of research I went with the LiveU Solo. It doesn’t come cheap, with the initial cost of the unit plus a yearly subscription. But both the hardware and software (using their LRT protocol) has proved itself to be exceptionally good and I hear from others across the pond reporting the same. My only small gripe is the support which can feel a bit distant sometimes. But perhaps not such a problem when their products behave so well.

The result of this unit is that I sometimes show up at a hotel and initial quick test shows a good WiFi connection. But I either won’t use it at all or I can add into in the blend, along with the cellular connection (my LiveU accepts 2 SIM cards so I will always have those ready to go in the first instance).

If you’re wanting reliability, it’s definitely a good way to go.

I’ve plenty more to say ... so do ask away!

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[James Perrett]

Humf has an interesting solution - especially as having 2 SIM cards means that you can try 2 different mobile networks.

I use a basic 4G router as my main internet link here but it took me 2 attempts to find the best network. Smarty (part of Three) often have the best data deals but O2 have better coverage and therefore faster speeds here. I haven't tried Vodafone or EE yet. I also haven't gone to the trouble of installing an external antenna as having the router on top of a high bookshelf works well here.

4G gives you much faster upload speeds compared to standard fibre broadband (FTTC) which could well be useful for streaming. It is certainly useful for uploading master files.

The Ubiquiti recommendation is for wifi - if you need solid reliable wifi then I would highly recommend their kit. I used it for our communicating with our underwater vehicle when it was on the sea surface and on deck. I think they also offer outdoor point to point links but I'm not sure whether that is what you are looking for.

[Dave Rowles]

I think I was getting a little carried away having see folk mixing remotely on their iPads. Maybe one for the future if the need arises.

Fascinating thread. I've had a good time reading! But wanted to jump on something said a while back.

iPad mixing:
* Great for small venues to rid the need for multi-core.
* Great for walking around a venue altering speaker EQ.
* Great for giving to band members to mix their own IEM mixes.
* Great for showing different screens/settings for easy access.

In large venues, they are no replacement for a board or wired access.

It's a good extra, but unless it's a small/low pressure gig, I don't rely on it.

[Mike Stranks]

Thanks guys for the clarifying comments... I shall explore further - especially costs! - but for now I'll stick with my 'Do you have access to a nearby router?' and my long Cat6 cable approach.

[Humf]

I think I was getting a little carried away having see folk mixing remotely on their iPads. Maybe one for the future if the need arises.

Fascinating thread. I've had a good time reading! But wanted to jump on something said a while back.

iPad mixing:
* Great for small venues to rid the need for multi-core.
* Great for walking around a venue altering speaker EQ.
* Great for giving to band members to mix their own IEM mixes.
* Great for showing different screens/settings for easy access.

In large venues, they are no replacement for a board or wired access.

It's a good extra, but unless it's a small/low pressure gig, I don't rely on it.

Thanks - makes sense

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[Humf]

Thanks guys for the clarifying comments... I shall explore further - especially costs! - but for now I'll stick with my 'Do you have access to a nearby router?' and my long Cat6 cable approach.

Yes I think on the cost front, it only makes sense if you are getting through a fair few jobs.

The other thing you could look at would be a router such as the Netgear Nighthawk M2. I haven’t experience myself but have come across people using them for this purpose. The unit only accepts one SIM though.

This guy is good and has been kind enough to offer me a bit of support along the way (the wonders of YouTube live chat!)

https://youtu.be/qlXYMIpD3Mk

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[Humf]

Well… this cheapo Ethernet cable has certainly done the trick. However I now have much more appreciation for my decent cables… This thing is like trying to manhandle a python with rigor mortis

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[Mike Stranks]

I have my multi-metre Cat6 cable on a drum... not one of the purpose-made things, but just an ordinary cable drum on which I've loaded the 'outdoor' Cat 6 cable. I use female/female adapters so I can connect with fly-leads to the required kit.

BTW I love that gizmo you use... but when I saw the price I quickly lost interest!

[Humf]

Yes definitely. I bought a couple of reels for my XLRs on the advice from people here and it’s made the world of difference. Think I’ll get one for this cable too. Just concerned it’s not ever going to behave well without the flex my others have. Plus the reels are not much cheaper than the cable itself!

LiveU... yes. The pricing is prohibitive for sure. I’ll have to make a decision in the spring whether to renew my yearly subscription. Things are certainly quietening down a little on that front... I can still use the unit as a stand-alone encoder with a single data connection I believe.

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