Upgrading an interface…

[Jay Menon]

Apologies in advance if some of this sounds crazy…

I have a reasonably well treated room and a couple of nice microphones. My monitors are PMC…

Thus far I used an RME fireface UCX; but I have noticed not enough preamp gain for guitars with passive pickups (particularly my bass guitar) so much so that I bought one of those Orchid electronics Micro DI boxes that runs off phantom power to give me more gain.

I actually really like my Zoom TAC2-R. The latency on Thunderbolt is incredible and it sounds rather nice. Plenty of gain too.

I’m rather tempted by a Focusrite Clarett 2Pre Thunderbolt interface - but will any sonic improvements be clearly audible or very subtle?

A lot of my stuff is singer-songwriter stuff and I tend to record clean rather than committing myself to something that I can’t alter later on…

Expert opinions most appreciated…

[Martin Walker]

Apologies in advance if some of this sounds crazy…

Thus far I used an RME fireface UCX; but I have noticed not enough preamp gain for guitars with passive pickups (particularly my bass guitar) so much so that I bought one of those Orchid electronics Micro DI boxes that runs off phantom power to give me more gain.

I suspect you're labouring under a misapprehension Jay

Here's what Hugh said in his review of the Orchid Micro DI:

"The Micro DI's frequency response is essentially a flat line from about 15Hz to well over 50kHz (matching that of the Radial J48). Interestingly, the Orchid DI introduces a loss from input to output of just under 10dB, padding down a guitar signal to nominal mic-level. "


So while that approach would certainly work, I've got the RME Fireface UC, and have never had a problem with having too little gain. I use front panel Input 3 or 4, set in Totalmix to '-10dbV' & 'Inst' for high input impedance, along with a typical gain of around 9dB (up to 18dB is available on those inputs).

If you're currently switching your input to '+4dBu' or 'Lo Gain' then you'd be struggling for sufficient gain from a passive guitar, but should be fine with the above settings - they are after all designed for passive guitars.

Martin

[Sam Spoons]

The Orchid Micro DI (and nearly every other DI I've encountered) reduces the level of an electric/electronic instrument to mic level and, 'cos it need phantom power, needs to be plugged into a mic input. Normally you'd plug a guitar into a TS Jack input rather than the XLR mic inout. On many interfaces some of the jack inputs can be switched between instrument and line level but if not a line input may not sensitive enough to get good level from an electric guitar (quite apart from the impedance not being appropriate for passive electric guitar pickups).

[Jay Menon]

Thanks chaps for your replies.

My primary question however involved not so much the gain structures but whether upgrading to something like a Focusrite Clarett Thunderbolt would improve sound quality significantly compared to the Zoom?

Most interested to hear your thoughts.

[Aled Hughes]

Thanks chaps for your replies.

My primary question however involved not so much the gain structures but whether upgrading to something like a Focusrite Clarett Thunderbolt would improve sound quality significantly compared to the Zoom?

Most interested to hear your thoughts.

Probably not, and almost certainly not compared to the RME.

[Arpangel]

Thanks chaps for your replies.

My primary question however involved not so much the gain structures but whether upgrading to something like a Focusrite Clarett Thunderbolt would improve sound quality significantly compared to the Zoom?

Most interested to hear your thoughts.

The Focusrite Clarett is a fabulous interface, and I’d expect to hear a "difference" over the Zoom, but whether it represents a worthwhile difference is up to you, it’s very difficult to audition before buying, but it is important, interfaces do sound different, that’s why we have preferences.

[James Perrett]

Looking at the specs of the TAC-2, it looks like the Clarett would give slightly improved noise performance but I would expect the RME to be as good, if not better, than the Clarett with the added benefits of RME's drivers and control software.

[Jay Menon]

Looking at the specs of the TAC-2, it looks like the Clarett would give slightly improved noise performance but I would expect the RME to be as good, if not better, than the Clarett with the added benefits of RME's drivers and control software.

Even though the RME is USB 2.0 and the Clarett / TAC2-R are both Thunderbolt…?

[Aled Hughes]

Looking at the specs of the TAC-2, it looks like the Clarett would give slightly improved noise performance but I would expect the RME to be as good, if not better, than the Clarett with the added benefits of RME's drivers and control software.

Even though the RME is USB 2.0 and the Clarett / TAC2-R are both Thunderbolt…?

Yes. Most of RME’s premium interfaces are USB 2.0, and they are top professional units. Thunderbolt offers no audio quality benefits, and the additional bandwidth is unnecessary - we have an RME USB 2.0 interface in the studio that can handle 136 channels!

Also see: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dSIf4QGYs-c

[James Perrett]

RME design their own hardware and drivers whereas Focusrite and most of the others buy in the USB or Thunderbolt parts and drivers from third party manufacturers. RME's USB drivers are far better than Zoom's in my experience. If you take a look at the DAWBench performance comparisons you will see that your RME interface still holds up very well compared to newer interfaces from other manufacturers.

[Jay Menon]

Apologies in advance if some of this sounds crazy…

Thus far I used an RME fireface UCX; but I have noticed not enough preamp gain for guitars with passive pickups (particularly my bass guitar) so much so that I bought one of those Orchid electronics Micro DI boxes that runs off phantom power to give me more gain.

I've got the RME Fireface UC, and have never had a problem with having too little gain. I use front panel Input 3 or 4, set in Totalmix to '-10dbV' & 'Inst' for high input impedance, along with a typical gain of around 9dB (up to 18dB is available on those inputs).

If you're currently switching your input to '+4dBu' or 'Lo Gain' then you'd be struggling for sufficient gain from a passive guitar, but should be fine with the above settings - they are after all designed for passive guitars.

Martin

I notice that the Hi-Z input on the RME UCX IS 470kΩ
On most other interfaces the Hi-Z is 1megΩ

That's quite a difference - is this relevant...?

[Arpangel]

Looking at the specs of the TAC-2, it looks like the Clarett would give slightly improved noise performance but I would expect the RME to be as good, if not better, than the Clarett with the added benefits of RME's drivers and control software.

Tech specs are all very well, and important, but we choose, and use, interfaces, in different ways sometimes,
We prioritise things in different orders, you may sacrifice sound quality if it has a better mixer, software, plug-in's, the type of connectors used might make it suitable even though all else was fine.
Some interfaces tick all the boxes for me, some only one or two, and sound quality isn’t the most important thing for some people, I/O count, ease of use, 24/7 reliability, back-up support in the field, are all things that you might want to put at the top of the list.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I notice that the Hi-Z input on the RME UCX IS 470kΩ
On most other interfaces the Hi-Z is 1megΩ

That's quite a difference - is this relevant...?

No. And you have the Orchid anyway.

So do you just hate the RME or what? Because it is the superior option here.

[Jay Menon]

So do you just hate the RME or what? Because it is the superior option here.

I don't hate it, it just bugs me that my electric guitar sounds nicer through my cheap Zoom than through my RME (played through S-Gear)

[Wonks]

I notice that the Hi-Z input on the RME UCX IS 470kΩ
On most other interfaces the Hi-Z is 1megΩ

That's quite a difference - is this relevant...?

It can sometimes have a very small effect, depending on how you are set up.

If you have any active pedals or an active guitar running into the interface, then none at all.

Boss pedals normally have a 500k input impedance, so if you are happy running into one of those in bypass, then you'll be fine. You will push the pickup's resonant peak down very slightly with the lower input impedance, but not by enough to make a huge difference.

If you take the pickup being loaded by the guitar's volume pot and AI input impedance in parallel, then with a 250k vol pot you get a resultant 163k or 200k load (for 470k and 1000k), and with a 500k pot either a 242k or 333k load (again for 470k and 1000k).

So that must have an affect on the sound, but it's a question of by how much. If you've got great ears you may notice the difference in an A/B test, but probably not in isolation. And you'll notice any difference much more with a very clean guitar sound than with a distorted one, where you are adding loads of extra high frequency harmonics.

[Wonks]

Have you tried putting an 'always on' clean boost pedal (like an EP booster) that you know has a 1 meg input impedance in line when recording, to see if that makes a difference?

[Jay Menon]

Have you tried putting an 'always on' clean boost pedal (like an EP booster) that you know has a 1 meg input impedance in line when recording, to see if that makes a difference?

Thanks Wonks, I'll try that...

Apparently Focusrite's HiZ input impedance is 2MegΩ.
Various manufacturers seem to be all over the place...

[Arpangel]

So do you just hate the RME or what? Because it is the superior option here.

I don't hate it, it just bugs me that my electric guitar sounds nicer to my cheap Zoom than through my RME (played through S-Gear)

How can I say this without sounding biased?
All I’m going to say is, that there are some bits of kit that are more "musical" than others, interpret that how you will.

[Martin Walker]

I notice that the Hi-Z input on the RME UCX IS 470kΩ
On most other interfaces the Hi-Z is 1megΩ

That's quite a difference - is this relevant...?

Wonks has already given a comprehensive and informative reply, and as Tomás mentions, you also have your Orchid Micro DI with an input impedance of 1M, so I'd be interested to hear whether or not you could her any difference in tone using that rather than the RME guitar input at 470k.

The lower the input impedance the more your guitar pickups will be under load, and therefore their output will drop slightly, but this is only likely to be of the order of a dB or two - not very much in the overall scheme of things.

However, some guitarists claim that 1M (or even 2M) results in more of the guitar's spiky transients getting through - as I said before try both and see if you can hear the difference

[Rockrooms]

RME design their own hardware and drivers whereas Focusrite and most of the others buy in the USB or Thunderbolt parts and drivers from third party manufacturers. RME's USB drivers are far better than Zoom's in my experience. If you take a look at the DAWBench performance comparisons you will see that your RME interface still holds up very well compared to newer interfaces from other manufacturers.

Focusrite drivers are written in house. Whilst RME do have excellent drivers, ours is pretty good too

Joe

[Hugh Robjohns]

I don't hate it, it just bugs me that my electric guitar sounds nicer through my cheap Zoom than through my RME (played through S-Gear)

I don't know a single guitarist who likes the sound of the clean output straight from the guitar.

Nevertheless, a lot of DIs and preamp /interface instrument inputs are designed to capture that signal as cleanly as possible, with the expectation that any tonal shaping will be achieved with FX pedals before the DI, or plugins in the DAW.

Some DIs and instrument inputs, though, are intentionally designed to add some 'musical colouration' and those manufacturers usually promote this 'benefit' quite clearly.

Personally, I want my interface to capture the signal I give it, and I'll add any desired colouration in my own way, thanks. But some like the convenience of just plugging in and hearing a musically pleasing sound from the off.

Of course, not everyone agrees on what counts as musically pleasing....

There are several dedicated instrument preamps that can be used in front of an interface to add musical colour to a guitar, such as the Radial HDI that I reviewed a while back: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/radial-hdi

[MOF]

The lower the input impedance the more your guitar pickups will be under load, and therefore their output will drop slightly, but this is only likely to be of the order of a dB or two - not very much in the overall scheme of things.

But it’s effect is not linear across all frequencies, a large mismatch in impedance results in a thin sound i.e. no bass, so a slight mismatch will have a slight lowering of bass and this might be perceptible.

[Jay Menon]

I don't hate it, it just bugs me that my electric guitar sounds nicer through my cheap Zoom than through my RME (played through S-Gear)

I don't know a single guitarist who likes the sound of the clean output straight from the guitar.

Nevertheless, a lot of DIs and preamp /interface instrument inputs are designed to capture that signal as cleanly as possible, with the expectation that any tonal shaping will be achieved with FX pedals before the DI, or plugins in the DAW.

Some DIs and instrument inputs, though, are intentionally designed to add some 'musical colouration' and those manufacturers usually promote this 'benefit' quite clearly.

Personally, I want my interface to capture the signal I give it, and I'll add any desired colouration in my own way, thanks. But some like the convenience of just plugging in and hearing a musically pleasing sound from the off.

Of course, not everyone agrees on what counts as musically pleasing....

There are several dedicated instrument preamps that can be used in front of an interface to add musical colour to a guitar, such as the Radial HDI that I reviewed a while back: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/radial-hdi

My apologies if I wasn’t clear Hugh. I’m playing through a rather nice guitar amplifier software (S-Gear).

Particularly on the clean sounds it sounds much nicer when I’m using my zoom TAC2-R as compared with my RME UCX.

Also I remember needing to rack up the gain very high on the RME with my bass guitar (with attendant hiss/noise). At that time I didn’t know the HiZ input impedance value on the RME - even now not I’m so sure about what effect it has.

Are you saying that 470kOhm impedance on a HiZ input gives a less coloured cleaner sound?

There was an interesting post on the RME forum and the RME people came across as perhaps not as gracious as I would’ve liked…

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=3716

[James Perrett]

I think that most people would consider the input impedance issue to be minor and you already have a workaround with the Orchid box. RME interfaces win out when you consider the things that can't easily be changed like the bus handling and drivers.

As you mention in your other threads, the TAC-2 is no longer supported despite it only being around 10 years old. RME are still supporting 20 year old designs.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Particularly on the clean sounds it sounds much nicer when I’m using my zoom TAC2-R as compared with my RME UCX.

Presumably because the UCX is giving you what comes out of the guitar, and the TAC is giving you a musically bent sound you happen to like more?

Also I remember needing to rack up the gain very high on the RME with my bass guitar

Different DIs and instrument inputs offer different gain ranges and headroom margins, and different guitars produce different output levels. There are easy workarounds if you need more of either...

At that time I didn’t know the HiZ input impedance value on the RME - even now not I’m so sure about what effect it has.

Virtually none at all, in terms of signal level.

Are you saying that 470kOhm impedance on a HiZ input gives a less coloured cleaner sound?

No, absolutely not. The impedance might affect the tonality slightly as it plays a role in the pickup's resonance tuning, but it has a largely negligible effect above about 500k unless you're using a very capacitive cable, or running with the volume pot well down. In these cases the HF response can be affected quite noticeably.

Fundamentally, though, it is the design of the input buffer and/or gain stage circuitry that determines the amount and nature of harmonic distortion, and that's what mostly determines the 'musical character'.

There was an interesting post on the RME forum and the RME people came across as perhaps not as gracious as I would’ve liked…

Forums are such fun....