Song writing tip

[merlyn]

Using an E major chord in C involves changing G to G#. If we do that with a C triad we get C augmented, notated as C+. If you play C+ you might think it has no place in pop. Actually it's the intro to Mama Mia

[shufflebeat]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

[merlyn]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

You don't need a bass note for there to be a chord.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

I hear C+ (D+). You're suggesting it goes | D / / / | Bb / / / | That doesn't sound right to me.

[merlyn]

Maybe the next bit will make more sense of it :

This comes back later in the song as a vocal line with a good ole pumpin' bassline on C (D) in case there was any doubt.

[shufflebeat]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

You don't need a bass note for there to be a chord.

Agreed, but there will often be some.amibuity when all you have in and interval. It could be part of many potential harmonic structures, which are themselves often emergent rather than pre-scripted so the composer might not even be thinking in terms of larger scale harmonic structure.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

I hear C+ (D+). You're suggesting it goes | D / / / | Bb / / / | That doesn't sound right to me.

That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion because those notes fit that pattern. However, there are other patterns that fit as well. Not all will be credible but some are at least as credible as the C+ (D+).

If I play, for instance, an Am7 chord (1/m3/5/b7) and then take the 1 out the remaining notes don't necessarily remain an Am if I do something in the melody to imply movement. Ergo, the move to G# (A#) in the line you refer to *may* be understood in more than one way.

[RichardT]

G# ver a C would be a C+ but it's not over a C in Mama Mia, there is no definitive bass note but if there was it wouldn't be C.

There is a C (actually, it's in D) under the changing note but I'd suggest that's the 1 when the top note is G(A) and the maj3 of Ab (Bb) when the top note goes up a semitone.

But there's an E natural in that chord so it can't be an Ab.

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

[shufflebeat]

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

[merlyn]

That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion because those notes fit that pattern. However, there are other patterns that fit as well. Not all will be credible but some are at least as credible as the C+ (D+).

My idea of 'what the chords are' is what you would strum along with, or play block chords on the piano. If we're dealing with a record there is less ambiguity.

If I play, for instance, an Am7 chord (1/m3/5/b7) and then take the 1 out the remaining notes don't necessarily remain an Am if I do something in the melody to imply movement.

Yes, if we leave out A from Am7 we have a C triad. Am7 is a C triad with an added A. Four note chords can be thought on as triads with an added note :

Cmaj7 = Em/C, Dm7 = F/D, Em7 = G/E, Fmaj7 = Am/F ...

If a guitarist was playing a C triad then the bass player could decide whether it's C by playing C, E or G, or Am7 by playing A.

We can keep going with that : Fmaj9 = Am7/F. That's in True by ahem ... Spandau Ballet. It's the big ringy out chord.

A lot of pop music uses triads exclusively, with maybe an occasional dominant 7th thrown in.

Ergo, the move to G# (A#) in the line you refer to *may* be understood in more than one way.

Yes, a piece of music can always be re-harmonised.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

I don't know if I'd say 'nice'. It's got a slightly manic circus/fairground feel to me. But yes, the sound comes first. Unless you're deaf you must use your ears, surely? The idea that anyone blindly (or deafly) writes music using only theory doesn't hold. Do I think Abba knew that that was an augmented chord? No. He moved his fingers about and came up with something. I would think he realised later.

[Albatross]

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

It has to look like it sounds nice... you know that!

[shufflebeat]

Yes, if we leave out A from Am7 we have a C triad. Am7 is a C triad with an added A. Four note chords can be thought on as triads with an added note :

I'd both agree and disagree, which, of course, underlines the inherent ambiguity.

Am without the A is not a C triad exclusively. It can be understood as such in a kind of second inversion way but, and here's my underlying point - there are different way to understand and describe this because different languages have emerged and evolved which seek to maintain their internal logic but in order to do so tend to end up sounding arcane and end up chipping off anything that doesn't fit the paradigm until everyone ends up sounding like Andrew Lloyd Webber, tuneful but ultimately meaningless.

But I digress.

Those three notes could be part of any one of many chords, more than the C or Am, that's where all the fun is.

I play a lot of traditional music which, on the face of it, is very simple and straightforward. This is great when you're playing with people you don't know and there's an agreed core around which everyone can orbit. It also means that, so long as everyone knows the core and roles* don't overlap, you can pretty much play all night with people you've never met before. Not like blues where the structure is the benchmark, more like trad jazz where melody and harmony rule. The gold comes when people start reinterpreting the tune to fit the organic-ness of the performance.

*As a rhythm/chord player I can do some radical stuff without stepping on toes, introduce a bass player and we're all back to page 1 until we build up some understanding and agreed structure.

So - the Mama Mia phrase could be D, D+ or it could be D, Bb - both equally valid until the bass player spoils it.

I think we're agreeing her, it's just you're agreeing more than me, which is not unusual.

[shufflebeat]

If I had written it, I would say it stays in C throughout that motif. But I didn't, so we don't know what the writers had in mind.

Maybe it just sounded nice.

It has to look like it sounds nice... you know that!

That's what sparkly Lycra is for.

[RichardT]

As Charlie Parker said ‘learn the changes, then forget them’.

[merlyn]

So - the Mama Mia phrase could be D, D+ or it could be D, Bb - both equally valid until the bass player spoils it.

To me it's the middle part that defines whether the chord is D+ or Bb. We have the notes D and A. In between those two notes is F# -- we agree about that. In ambiguous land the first chord could be Bm7. We agree it's D. I would suggest that is because D sounds right.

Whether the next chord is D+ or Bb depends on whether F# stays as F# or goes to F. If F# stays as F# it's a D+ chord, if it goes to F it's a Bb chord.

What sounds right to you?

[BJG145]

I haven't read any of this guff. TBH I'm disconcerted that it's run to six pages.

The idea that there are theory rules for good songs is anathema to me.

[GilesAnt]

I haven't read any of this guff. TBH I'm disconcerted that it's run to six pages.

The idea that there are theory rules for good songs is anathema to me.

If you had read it you will understand that the thread does not suggest there are theory rules for good songs. But there is always some theory behind a good song.

[BJG145]

...there is always some theory behind a good song...

Maybe, but I expect the theory is usually after the fact.

[shufflebeat]

...there is always some theory behind a good song...

Maybe, but I expect the theory is usually after the fact.

That is pretty much my point, except for situations where the composer deliberately follows "the rules", which often leads to uninspired melodic foam.

[Drew Stephenson]

Whereas I suspect that the range of experiences follows the whole gamut from knowing no theory either before or after the fact through to plotting everything out according to 'the rules'.

I also suspect that the world will end before there is ever any agreement on which was is better.

[BJG145]

I suspect that the range of experiences follows the whole gamut from knowing no theory either before or after the fact through to plotting everything out according to 'the rules'. I also suspect that the world will end before there is ever any agreement on which was is better.

Can't argue with that.

I'm not anti-theory; just the original post that got my hackles up. But I should try it. Might learn something.

[shufflebeat]

A little bit of theory and notation goes a long way when you're working with other people and "sad" and "a bit weird" isn't as descriptive of the chords as you thought it might be.

[merlyn]

shufflebeat you might like this :

It's quite nice, but it's not Mama Mia.

Theory, like knowing what notes are in chords, could be, if you want, material for coming up with your own stuff.

[shufflebeat]

shufflebeat you might like this :

It's quite nice, but it's not Mama Mia.

Theory, like knowing what notes are in chords, could be, if you want, material for coming up with your own stuff.

My fingers are getting sore looking at that. I'll explore later.

[Albatross]

Over the last months I've been doing something I've never done before, learning other people's songs for my busking activities. I must say its been a revelation and I often just smile at the genius and simplicity of some truly great tunes.

Something I have noticed though is that I'm starting to get a funny smell off some tunes I've tried. Its the smell of 'contrived' is the only way I can describe it... you know, the perfect change, the expected guaranteed heart lifting progression. No, I'm not going to say which songs, don't want to get into it, and some are brilliant and I really enjoy listening to the produced pieces. But to strip back and play raw with an acoustic guitar and me ol' croaking... there's something that doesn't feel right... too good. too 'right'.

Then there's 'Dogs', written by a genius with an idiots approach to music, but its just so warm and beautiful and good... 'Hounds of Love' too, Bowie's 'Win' ahhh who needs chocolate!?

[merlyn]

Then there's 'Dogs', ...

The only song I know of called 'Dogs' is by Pink Floyd. Is that the Dogs you're talking about?

[Albatross]

Yes, from Animals.