Gain Vs. Fader

[Crash006]

Hey Guys,

Another annoying topic from me. LOL

The other day i got called up to our church to do a sound check. I work from home and live 20 seconds away.

Upon getting there i am questioned by one of the vocalists (there is some background in running sound from her parents) about this that and the other.

The system has lost its punch and power over the last little bit - I was advised by this vocalist that they had reached out to their family and the remark was made that we were using faders over gain and that we should bring up the gain levels.... Not sure if most digital boards have this or not, but the TF3 has a digital finder, so i typically roughly set their vocal EQ, set the fader to 0, then dial the gain until they hit the green (center) and occasionally cross green into orange. When those steps are done for each vocalist i will blend them all into a mix, meaning i take the faders and bring them down, don't think i have ever gone above 0. We then had to tackle the vocal settings used when this person gets behind the keyboard. After this discussion and one in relation to gating which i have already addressed in a separate post, the keyboard has it's own monitor mix and a monitor sitting about 4 feet away. We ended up dialing the gain up to 40 something before i finally got it to ring out, but the fader was not at zero from my recollection. The comment was made how effortless it was and how it had punch and power. Don't know if i would call it that or being bloody loud. But....

Should i be using gain over the faders? (Meaning a different gain structure)
Are my gain structure steps wrong?
Where do others run gain? (just for examples, i know other settings won't correct my problems, just a question)

To confirm, all my outputs (monitors, mains) are set to 0.

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm sure smarter people than me will be along to correct me in due course, but the way I was shown was that, summarising, gain is about input, fader is about output.
So you use the gain control to make sure the signal is coming into the board (and subsequent chain) at the right level. You then use the fader to mix the output.
Fundamentally gain and fader are doing the same thing but at different stages in the process - but if you put too much gain early in the process you could be overloading subsequent stages.
It may be that some of that over-loading results in nice-sounding distortion/saturation, but personally I'd rather do that as a deliberate move rather than an accidental by-product.

[Mike Stranks]

Hello again!

From what you've described, you're doing exactly the right thing in terms of setting gain... OK; there are different ways of setting gain - many of us would use Prefade Listen - but your technique is acceptable.

Your post yet again illustrates that you really do have a battle on your hands... too many people with too many opinions, which is only confusing the situation through misunderstandings and everyone thinking that they know best.

You've indicated that the system was installed by someone who didn't really understand 'church sound' and gave you sketchy and rudimentary training at best.

If the church really does want good sound - and you're not continuously going to be at the sharp end of pointed comments - then it needs to hire in an experienced church-sound person who can:
* advise on the positioning of mics and speakers
* show you and others how to set up and adjust appropriate mixes
* work with all the musicians on hints and tips for the best worship mixes
* sit in on a full practice to offer on-the-spot guidance

I've done this 'full package' a few times and everyone was pleased with the outcomes. On the other hand, I've been engaged to do this and then subsequently cancelled when a leading light in the worship band refused to participate in any way.

If you were not 3000+ miles away, I'd be happy to help!

[sonics]

That's a great post by Mike. You need to hire him (or someone like him)!

[Mike Monte]

What I do with my digital mixers:
1. select/PAFL a vocalist's channel
2. adjust the gain (trim) on each channel so that its loudest signal is in the upper green LED's (I like to leave a little head-room....just in case)
3. mix/balance with faders

[resistorman]

That's a great post by Mike. You need to hire him (or someone like him)!

yes

[ef37a]

Now I know nothing of digital mixers but I do know that you should never leave sound equipment available to every Tom, Dick & Harry that thinks they are an expert on sound!

I would have thought a digital mixer would have had a password 'lock' facility? You, the real expert set it all up and then store and lock those settings? The lay user than just powers it up, possibly entering a code to activate the settings.

My experience of church PA many years ago was that the amps were in a locked room or cupboard. Same went for Working Men's Clubs. The Bingo amp (Wimbledons, 2X KT66) were in a locked cupboard and any member who tampered would have all the **** in hell descend upon him from 'Old Fred' who looked after the kit!

Just to be uber pedantic? "Gains" and "Faders" are electronically different. Gain controls the actual amplification factor of an amplifier, mic pre, by varying Negative Feedback. Faders are passive volume controls that are usually followed by a ~10dB amplifier. That is how analogue mixers work anyway!

Dave.

[Mike Stranks]

Now I know nothing of digital mixers but I do know that you should never leave sound equipment available to every T,D&H that thinks they are an expert on sound!

Dave.

Good advice Dave, but doesn't reflect how the world of 'church sound' is these days.

Gone are the days when church sound was two or four columns on pillars with a 100v feed from a mixer-amp with a mic in the pulpit and another on the lectern. (That said, I do look after a couple of CoE places that are like that.)

These days you're just as likely to find a very respectable 24/32 channel mixer using most of the inputs, with four or more monitor mixes, a reasonably complex set of FoH speakers and feeds to overflows, audio-recording and - increasingly these days - a feed to the livestreaming arrangements.

Some churches in the States are big enough to have someone on the staff who really knows how to work all of this properly, but even over there - where the 'worship' scene is very different to here - most rely on volunteers to keep the systems operating week in and week out.

When I was training, I always preferred to start with someone who was willing, but totally ignorant - in the nicest possible way! It was far easier to train them in best practice rather than the "I know something about live-sound" brigade, who were actually often woefully mistaken, but were convinced they were right.

So; Problem 1: unskilled operators expected to use increasingly complex gear which their churches had bought. Which leads to Problem 2:...

Church leaders who self-admittedly know nothing about sound and then go to 'the professionals' for advice and gear. Surprise, surprise, many of these 'professionals' are basically retailers who want maximum profit for minimum effort. So overly-complex systems are specced and installed at vast cost. Training is often minimal and rushed.

and then there's Problem 3:...

People who can play a musical instrument reasonably well and people who can at least hold a tune. The majority have never been in a band or group, are unused to being on stage and, probably through nerves, get very wound-up and intense when they find themselves both on-stage and in a group! Thus, through lack of confidence, you got monitor-poker where everyone constantly wants more and more of themselves in the monitors and, at the same time, wants to have their say from the stage about what FoH should be sounding like!

Churches have to work with what they've got, but as Crash006 is demonstrating in his posts, it often ain't easy!

BTW... if 'Mark One' is reading this I'd be interested in his thoughts, as he's associated with a church that has a fairly complex system...

[Drew Stephenson]

Just to be uber pedantic? "Gains" and "Faders" are electronically different. Gain controls the actual amplification factor of an amplifier, mic pre, by varying Negative Feedback. Faders are passive volume controls that are usually followed by a ~10dB amplifier. That is how analogue mixers work anyway!

I told you someone would be along to correct me!

[ef37a]

Just to be uber pedantic? "Gains" and "Faders" are electronically different. Gain controls the actual amplification factor of an amplifier, mic pre, by varying Negative Feedback. Faders are passive volume controls that are usually followed by a ~10dB amplifier. That is how analogue mixers work anyway!

I told you someone would be along to correct me!

Not CORRECT Drew just 'extending the knowledge'! BTW "gain" controls on guitar amps are rarely that. Most often just an inter-stage Volume Control, sometimes with a resistor in the earthy end of the pot to prevent total loss of signal.

And yes Mike I know I am WAY behind modern practice but there must be some way to 'lock out' the 'know it all meddlers'?

Dave.

[Crash006]

Just to be uber pedantic? "Gains" and "Faders" are electronically different. Gain controls the actual amplification factor of an amplifier, mic pre, by varying Negative Feedback. Faders are passive volume controls that are usually followed by a ~10dB amplifier. That is how analogue mixers work anyway!

I told you someone would be along to correct me!

Not CORRECT Drew just 'extending the knowledge'! BTW "gain" controls on guitar amps are rarely that. Most often just an inter-stage VC, sometimes with a resistor in the earthy end of the pot to prevent total loss of signal.

And yes Mike I know I am WAY behind modern practice but there must be some way to 'lock out' the 'know it all meddlers'?

Dave.

Hey EF37A

Yes there is a way to password protect the board with a password. However, there are 3 of us volunteers of whom I am the most versed in all things sound… that being said I will never admit to being a pro, not even an amateur.

Our major problem are there only two people that really create these problems. One is our music director, who would never admit this, is partially deaf. The other is the pastors wife whose family has a background with sound, who is one of our best vocalists.

The issues are always brought forth as a problem with the overall sound. When I grill them on the problem it comes back to the fact that “they” can’t hear someone specific, even though know that one person does not tell me there is a problem. Or, they will say it system has lost its punch and come to find out it’s one mic they use for about 5 minutes outside of what is ever practiced. That last one actually just happened and I was told “it’s makes me sad”…

So yeah not a pro but I enjoy doing this and try my best to make the sound amazing. Also, the practices that I get are only 5-10 minutes. That means in that time frame I need to find out who the singers are, set them on the board, set their eq, blend the monitors, then blend the house.. normally in that time frame I hardly get anything done well, as when I am setting the eq and gains the music starts and stops numerous times.

It’s very frustrating!!! Haha but for some reason I keep going back for more.

[MarkOne]

BTW... if 'Mark One' is reading this I'd be interested in his thoughts, as he's associated with a church that has a fairly complex system...

Indeed. We have the added complexity that we rent out our building to another organisation every week, and they have a completely different set of needs. (And like to be a lot louder.)

When we transitioned to a digital desk back in 2018, one of the biggest wins for me was using scenes.

We have a whole bunch of scenes for the various things going on in the building each week, and our volunteer team all know they can start with a known good setup and tweak from there.

My volunteers are not technical folk, but are keen and have learned to do the things they need to do. I've dialled in default EQs and gains during rehearsals. We can then do limited tweaking at the sound check.

I've also set up the soft keys on the A&H to different mute groups, so we can kill all the vocal mics as a group, the ambience mics (for the stream mix), etc, and the instruments, so that during talk-only times the only open mics are the lav and/or the lectern.

In the perfect world we would have a team who all understand gain staging and eq moves, (In a perfect world I'd have someone else running the PTZ and camera switching, and ideally someone else using the iPad app monitoring the live stream mix on cans - or even in another room!) but we do what we can.

I guess I'm fortunate that we don't get too much 'more of me' from the vocalists (3-4 each week) and by and large they have all learned to stay on the mics pretty well.

But I do spend a lot of time talking to the singers and musicians at sound check, asking if they're happy, going up to stand next to them with the iPad if necessary to hear what they're hearing. As always, communication is more than half of the job. I've also found it's worthwhile doing an evening training session with singers, explaining in layman's terms how their mic works, and dos and donts like don't cup the basket, don't point it at the monitors, put it back on the stand.

[ef37a]

'IEMs' Crash? And give them their own level control.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Just to be uber pedantic? "Gains" and "Faders" are electronically different. Gain controls the actual amplification factor of an amplifier, mic pre, by varying Negative Feedback. Faders are passive volume controls that are usually followed by a ~10dB amplifier.

Just to be uber-uber-pedantic.... there's a typo in there: the fader is followed by a (plus) +10dB amplifier, making up for the 10dB attenuation through the fader when the knob is on the 0 mark (assuming the design allows the fader to provide up to 10dB of boost.)

[ef37a]

Just to be uber pedantic? "Gains" and "Faders" are electronically different. Gain controls the actual amplification factor of an amplifier, mic pre, by varying Negative Feedback. Faders are passive volume controls that are usually followed by a ~10dB amplifier.

Just to be uber-uber-pedantic.... there's a typo in there: the fader is followed by a (plus) +10dB amplifier, making up for the 10dB attenuation through the fader when the knob is on the 0 mark (assuming the design allows the fader to provide up to 10dB of boost.)

Nope. No typo, just me being lazy "~" is my shorthand for "about 10dB of gain".

Sorreee!

[Crash006]

'IEMs' Crash? And give them their own level control.

Dave.

HAHAHAHAHAHA... IEMs!!!!! The amount of times i have brought this up is another frustration. It wasn't until very recent that a majority of our keyboard players (Keyboard is typically the lead instrument and vocal in our church) decided they would like to try it in one ear and have the monitor there for the overall sound. Our singers (which is around 15-20) only a small group of them are talented singers while the rest are fills (they don't get much volume) don't want them and i get push back on them actually trying them.

We did attempt to allow one person, mentioned earlier in the post whose family has some sound background, but we stopped that as it really was not working in a live setting. It also does not help that they won't tell me what needs to change during the performance and during practice they won't practice as if they were live. Not joking, i have one singer that basically whispers the words during practice, then shouts the words during the service. HAHA

[Crash006]

BTW... if 'Mark One' is reading this I'd be interested in his thoughts, as he's associated with a church that has a fairly complex system...

Indeed. We have the added complexity that we rent out our building to another organisation every week, and they have a completely different set of needs. (And like to be a lot louder.)

When we transitioned to a digital desk back in 2018, one of the biggest wins for me was using scenes.

We have a whole bunch of scenes for the various things going on in the building each week, and our volunteer team all know they can start with a known good setup and tweak from there.

My volunteers are not technical folk, but are keen and have learned to do the things they need to do. I've dialled in default EQs and gains during rehearsals. We can then do limited tweaking at the sound check.

I've also set up the soft keys on the A&H to different mute groups, so we can kill all the vocal mics as a group, the ambience mics (for the stream mix), etc, and the instruments, so that during talk-only times the only open mics are the lav and/or the lectern.

In the perfect world we would have a team who all understand gain staging and eq moves, (In a perfect world I'd have someone else running the PTZ and camera switching, and ideally someone else using the iPad app monitoring the live stream mix on cans - or even in another room!) but we do what we can.

I guess I'm fortunate that we don't get too much 'more of me' from the vocalists (3-4 each week) and by and large they have all learned to stay on the mics pretty well.

But I do spend a lot of time talking to the singers and musicians at sound check, asking if they're happy, going up to stand next to them with the iPad if necessary to hear what they're hearing. As always, communication is more than half of the job. I've also found it's worthwhile doing an evening training session with singers, explaining in layman's terms how their mic works, and dos and donts like don't cup the basket, don't point it at the monitors, put it back on the stand.

Hey Mark One,

So i recently did this with one of the groups of singers. But i am curious from someone who is way more pro then me...
1. What distance from mouth to mic do you suggest your singers hold the Mic? I said 2-3 inches as a neutral point. when softer pull it in closer and when louder pull it away.
2. I also brought up the fact that they should not cup the mic and to hold it in the center of the mic not by the base (wireless mic). I also mentioned do not point them at monitors. Is there another way to tell them this, IE: issues they can cause?
3. We have done a few training nights recently and it helped but it was only for certain groups and all the above was forgotten by the time it was the next service. What else do you cover in your training sessions?

[Crash006]

Does anyone know who to post pictures on here? I tried a while back and was unable to.. I want to send some pictures of our setup for some better feed back.

[James Perrett]

Does anyone know who to post pictures on here? I tried a while back and was unable to.. I want to send some pictures of our setup for some better feed back.

Mike Stranks produced a video linked from

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=75253

which shows you how to do it. Basically you need to put them up on another web site and then link to them.

[ef37a]

What distance from mouth to mic do you suggest your singers hold the Mic? I said 2-3 inches as a neutral point. when softer pull it in closer and when louder pull it away

If these guys and gals are really fired up and belting out the songs I would have thought the mics (dynamics?) could be a foot or so from mouth?
But then I have been 'roughed up' a couple of times in this thread some so, WTFDIK?

For GOOD mic technique show them videos of seasoned performers. In fact, comedians (On Stage at the Apollo) are usually excellent. They keep the mic at jee-ust the right distance with the 'servo action' of raptor's head.

Personally I always tried to keep Joe Plebs hands OFF mics and NEVER give them one with a switch!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Nope. No typo, just me being lazy "~" is my shorthand for "about 10dB of gain".

Fair enough. It's surprisingly hard to spot the difference between a hyphen and a tilda on my phone screen! But anyway, any possible confusion is resolved.

[Mike Monte]

HAHAHAHAHAHA... ... a majority of our keyboard players (Keyboard is typically the lead instrument and vocal in our church) ... Our singers (which is around 15-20) ... i have one singer that basically whispers the words during practice, then shouts the words during the service. HAHA

You may want to use SM58's (or usual suspect) on soloists and use one/two choral mics for rest of the singers. I do the above and it always works well...
The choral mics I use are Shure MX202B/C and I stand-mount them. They are not too expensive and work well. (You will need phantom power but all mixers have that these days.)

The whisper/shouter should be placed in the back of the choir.....IMO.
In doing so it may (will) cause a rift with that person as I have found that choir members (at least in my church) want to be seen as well as heard.

[ef37a]

Nope. No typo, just me being lazy "~" is my shorthand for "about 10dB of gain".

Fair enough. It's surprisingly hard to spot the difference between a hyphen and a tilda on my phone screen! But anyway, any possible confusion is resolved.

Gotcha! One other reason I cannot get on with a smart phone. I had quite a search to find this laptop with all the features I wanted, at the right price but with a 15.6" screen. Bloody SHEDS of smaller ones. I would have paid a bit extra for a 17incher but they are only found under rocking horses!

Dave.

[ef37a]

"The whisper/shouter should be placed in the back of the choir.....IMO.
In doing so it may (will) cause a rift with that person as I have found that choir members (at least in my church) want to be seen as well as heard."

I have never watched it (being a life long confirmed Cathode Follower) but this thread has made me VERY admiring of and little sorry for the crew that produce Songs of Praise!

Dave.

[Crash006]

HAHAHAHAHAHA... ... a majority of our keyboard players (Keyboard is typically the lead instrument and vocal in our church) ... Our singers (which is around 15-20) ... i have one singer that basically whispers the words during practice, then shouts the words during the service. HAHA

You may want to use SM58's (or usual suspect) on soloists and use one/two choral mics for rest of the singers. I do the above and it always works well...
The choral mics I use are Shure MX202B/C and I stand-mount them. They are not too expensive and work well. (You will need phantom power but all mixers have that these days.)

The whisper/shouter should be placed in the back of the choir.....IMO.
In doing so it may (will) cause a rift with that person as I have found that choir members (at least in my church) want to be seen as well as heard.

Our singers are not a choral all are doing parts. There are typically 4 and a additional mic at the key who is the lead instrument and lead singer, although she doesn’t swing lead, which makes it more of a follow the leader