How to mic 50 guitars for a live show in a football pitch?

[miguelchambergo]

Hi,

I wonder if this is possible and what would be the best approach.

There are 50 guitar players, all playing at the same time, along with a DJ.

Facts:
- The "stage" is a football pitch: 105 metres (115 yd) x 68 metres (74 yd)
- Most of the time, 25 musicians will be on one side and the other 25 on the other side (the longest side of the pitch).
- At one moment, each group will move to each of the shortest sides, the ones facing the goals.

What I've thought so far:
- Each player connected to a wireless transmitter/receiver system, like the Line6 Relay G10II.
- The wireless receivers will be connected to a line mixer, like the Tascam LM-8ST Line Mixer or the Behringer RX1602 V2. Several mixers might be needed.

Challenges:
- We need a rock sound, so at least an amp simulator is needed per guitar. I first thought about thse amplugs (e.g. VOX) but I'm not sure they would work with the wireless transmitter (headphones output to instrument output).
- I'm not sure if the available systems work with so many instruments at the same time (interference, channels, etc.)
- All the gear needs to be rented. Not sure about the availability. (The event is in Prague, Czech Republic)

I appreciate any help or ideas. I really want to make this happen.

Peace,

Miguel

[Drew Stephenson]

I think you need to look for some kind of wired amp-emulation pedal that you can then plug into a suitably sized mixer. Trying to do it wireless is adding an extra level of complexity for very little benefit.

[Wonks]

Hi and welcome.

You've certainly got a problem there!

Digital wireless systems on 2.4GHz, especially the lowest are normally limited on the number of channels they can use at once. With the Line 6 systems, it appears the maximum is 14. As all the Line 6 products use the same channel coding system, that's going to be your limit there. What I don't know is whether a digital system from another manufacturer would then allow you to use their maximum number of channels at the same time.

You've also got to think about wireless range. The best line of sight range for the G10 is quoted as 40m. But put quite a few people in between the transmitter and receiver and that range could drop considerably, or else you may get a drop-out if someone walks in the way for a few seconds.

And with people moving around on the pitch, they could very well walk out of range very easily.

The problem with 2.4GHz systems is that the band is used by standard wi-fi as well, so any stadium wi-fi will be eating up bandwidth, as well as every single phone or tablet with wi-fi that the audience brings with them with wi-fi switched on.

You could have a mixture of wi-fi band and UHF transmitters. I don't know what standard UHF channels are available for unlicensed or licensed use in the Czech Republic, but again, there will be limitations as to how many UHF systems can work on a single channel.

Plus I'm sure there will be other radio mic systems for announcers that are used during the event, which will need co-ordinating with the guitar system channel choice to avoid conflict. You can't have two UHF transmitters in close proximity using the same frequency within a channel without causing interference.

It really sounds to me like you need to speak to one of the bigger audio event hire companies to see what they can suggest rather than asking on here. We can provide general guidelines, but not the specific info you really need. Someone with experience is then in charge of co-ordinating and providing all the systems. They may also tell you that it can't be done, or maybe 30 guitars will be the practical limit.

If you find out if it is achievable, then start thinking about how you are going to get a rock sound from each guitar. The Vox-style plug could work, but you also need to consider how each guitarist is going to hear themselves.

Headphones is one option, and presumably their sound will go through the stadium PA but with all those guitarists spread out in a 100m long line, without headphones or some form of local monitoring, the sound delay will be a big issue with people's timing and playing. I found it hard to play well using a Line 6 wireless system through a Helix and a digital desk and hearing only through monitors that were maybe 8 feet away, so maybe 14ms of delay. Depending on the PA arrangements, a guitarist could easily be between 20m to 50m away from the nearest speaker, which is roughly a 60ms to 150ms delay between playing a note and hearing it back. SO, keeping everyone in time could be a big issue, so if you haven't got a conductor in charge waving a baton (and most rock guitarists will need to get used to working with a conductor), I'd consider having some flashing lights acting as a metronome to provide a steady beat indication.

[Wonks]

Does it have to be 100% live? If not I'd be tempted to record the guitarists playing together beforehand, and then have them mime on the day. Not 100% authentic but it's going to sound a lot better and will be a lot, lot cheaper to stage.

You can easily record 50 individual guitar tracks on a DAW (digital audio workstation) and have them panned to say maybe 8 different outputs on an audio interface feeding different PA segments, so it still sounds live and spontaneous, but without the big risk of it going very wrong on the day.

[Mike Stranks]

Wonks is on the money...

For 50 guitarists playing live, you'll need some very serious infrastructure that only the big hire companies can provide - as well as the expertise in how to configure it. As he's said, monitoring is also key... acoustic lag will be considerable, and you'll need some way of dealing with that to avoid it all degenerating into a chaotic mush.

Pre-recording and miming on the day would probably be the way to go... but you'll still need significant infrastructure to make sure everyone keeps in apparent sync...

Good luck!

[zenguitar]

Record the guitarists, and then make them mime for the performance.

This is a show, not a musical event, treat it as such.

Andy

[The Elf]

I agree. Mime. It's going to be difficult as is - no need to make it worse.

[Wonks]

If really necessary, you could have maybe one or two good soloists play live with transmitters and make it obvious they are playing live, which would add an extra convincing tough to the performance, but they would probably need in-ear monitoring and be fed the backing track to play along to. But still far simpler and better sounding than 50 guitarists trying to all play at once with variable audio lag from the speakers.

Just think of the last time you watched TV with a national anthem being sung at an international football or rugby match. You can hear the big mismatch between the player mics and the sound from the crowd.

[tea for two]

JmJarre in his mega cities concerts approx 3.5Million audience attendance Moscow (Gunniess World Records), 2.5 million approx audience attendance Paris, 1.5 million approx audience attendance Houston (these also Guinness World Records at the time) :
significant aspects of it was mimed due to important things hinging on correct timing : image projections on to sky scrapers, laser projections onto skyscrapers, fireworks.
As well as reliance upon nothing going wrong from synths, sequencers, computers.

If anything in the chain went wrong then the whole thing would be in jeopardy.
There were no second chances, no restart.

Going by JmJarre and his experienced team of world class engineers : doing similar for your show : miming significant aspects of it, or most of it, or even all of it.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Assuming they're well rehearsed, why not give them each their own amp? Obviously that would need testing in a tech rehearsal at the venue. You'd probably have to set rules about not touching the amp settings and have techs on stage to ensure that.

[Wonks]

Assuming they're well rehearsed, why not give them each their own amp? Obviously that would need testing in a tech rehearsal at the venue. You'd probably have to set rules about not touching the amp settings and have techs on stage to ensure that.

There isn’t a stage. They will be moving around the pitch, so some in the middle of the pitch could be moving 50m or more, others maybe only 20m. Fixed amps, 55m long guitar leads and the associated tangle and trip hazard just isn’t going to work.

I’m assuming that when they are moving position they’ll still be playing, as part of the display, so they can’t simply unplug from one amp and plug into another.

They would all have to be quite quiet and miked up in order to get a cohesive sound from the PA otherwise you’ll just have a ‘smear’ of sound arriving from a 100m long line of loud guitar amps on both sides of the pitch.

With today’s uncertain climate, there is also the risk of it raining during the event. Miming would be far safer than having 100 wet guitar amps (though I certainly would’t want to take any of my guitars out in the rain). Performing under gazebos would ruin the spectacle.

[Hugh Robjohns]

50 wireless links on a football pitch is technically doable — the last Eurovision Song Contest i covered used 48 — but only at huge cost and mind-boggling complexity that few audio companies in the world can achieve. It would also need carefully licensed UHF channels, not 2.4Ghz free-for-all chaos.

Unless you have an ESC-sized budget it's really a non starter.

Andy is right — this is an entertainment show, not a high quality concert recital, so treat it as such.
Record a backing track to which everyone can mime. If really necessary, you could have a few soloists on radio links, to infer authenticity, but they'll need in ear monitoring for synchronisation and both the guitar tx and IEM systems will need to be low-latency technologies.

[ef37a]

Miguel, have you ever tried to get 4 members of the family all singing Happy Birthday from different phones? Total chaos.

I would also say you will be lucky to find 50 electric guitarists who can play in sync when all together seated in a hall, never mind parading around! Possible but they would need weeks of rehearsal.

I agree with the general opinion here, have a few, top class players on the field (with battery backpack amps?) and mime the rest.

Dave.

[resistorman]

Does it have to be 100% live? If not I'd be tempted to record the guitarists playing together beforehand, and then have them mime on the day. Not 100% authentic but it's going to sound a lot better and will be a lot, lot cheaper to stage.

You can easily record 50 individual guitar tracks on a DAW (digital audio workstation) and have them panned to say maybe 8 different outputs on an audio interface feeding different PA segments, so it still sounds live and spontaneous, but without the big risk of it going very wrong on the day.

Yes. Your original idea is so complicated and expensive that it's likely to fail. You could split the difference and have a few of the guitars play live.

[RichardT]

I agree that the risk of failure or disaster is so high it’s just not worth trying.

If you were to have 50 live guitarists up to 100 yards apart you would not only have to arrange for the wireless feeds from the musicians, but come up with some way of making sure they can play in sync.

The simplest way is in ear monitors playing a click or backing track, but of course that requires another set of wireless channels.

Even then you’d have the problem for musicians far from the PA that the PA signal and the in-ear signal would be very significantly out of sync.

[miguelchambergo]

I think you need to look for some kind of wired amp-emulation pedal that you can then plug into a suitably sized mixer. Trying to do it wireless is adding an extra level of complexity for very little benefit.

Hi,

Thank you. Yes, the only reason for wirless was because players would be moving around.

[miguelchambergo]

Hi and welcome.

You've certainly got a problem there!

Digital wireless systems on 2.4GHz, especially the lowest are normally limited on the number of channels they can use at once. With the Line 6 systems, it appears the maximum is 14. As all the Line 6 products use the same channel coding system, that's going to be your limit there. What I don't know is whether a digital system from another manufacturer would then allow you to use their maximum number of channels at the same time.

You've also got to think about wireless range. The best line of sight range for the G10 is quoted as 40m. But put quite a few people in between the transmitter and receiver and that range could drop considerably, or else you may get a drop-out if someone walks in the way for a few seconds.

And with people moving around on the pitch, they could very well walk out of range very easily.

The problem with 2.4GHz systems is that the band is used by standard wi-fi as well, so any stadium wi-fi will be eating up bandwidth, as well as every single phone or tablet with wi-fi that the audience brings with them with wi-fi switched on.

You could have a mixture of wi-fi band and UHF transmitters. I don't know what standard UHF channels are available for unlicensed or licensed use in the Czech Republic, but again, there will be limitations as to how many UHF systems can work on a single channel.

Plus I'm sure there will be other radio mic systems for announcers that are used during the event, which will need co-ordinating with the guitar system channel choice to avoid conflict. You can't have two UHF transmitters in close proximity using the same frequency within a channel without causing interference.

It really sounds to me like you need to speak to one of the bigger audio event hire companies to see what they can suggest rather than asking on here. We can provide general guidelines, but not the specific info you really need. Someone with experience is then in charge of co-ordinating and providing all the systems. They may also tell you that it can't be done, or maybe 30 guitars will be the practical limit.

If you find out if it is achievable, then start thinking about how you are going to get a rock sound from each guitar. The Vox-style plug could work, but you also need to consider how each guitarist is going to hear themselves.

Headphones is one option, and presumably their sound will go through the stadium PA but with all those guitarists spread out in a 100m long line, without headphones or some form of local monitoring, the sound delay will be a big issue with people's timing and playing. I found it hard to play well using a Line 6 wireless system through a Helix and a digital desk and hearing only through monitors that were maybe 8 feet away, so maybe 14ms of delay. Depending on the PA arrangements, a guitarist could easily be between 20m to 50m away from the nearest speaker, which is roughly a 60ms to 150ms delay between playing a note and hearing it back. SO, keeping everyone in time could be a big issue, so if you haven't got a conductor in charge waving a baton (and most rock guitarists will need to get used to working with a conductor), I'd consider having some flashing lights acting as a metronome to provide a steady beat indication.

Hi,

Thank you for this thorough analysis.

I naively thought it was all simpler.

The agency organizing this is just concerned about the show. I was contacted because I run a small guitar school, so I'm in charge of getting the players and producing the music (there will be a DJ playing it back).

So, yes, monitoring and keeping everyone in sync is going to be a big problem and at this point, I'm gonna have to accept the idea of players just mimicking rather than playing live. This is what they originally proposed but I thought I could change their mind if I came out with a good plan.

I guess in-ears streaming the backing track might be a good idea.

Thanks for your insight, I really appreciate it.

[miguelchambergo]

Does it have to be 100% live? If not I'd be tempted to record the guitarists playing together beforehand, and then have them mime on the day. Not 100% authentic but it's going to sound a lot better and will be a lot, lot cheaper to stage.

You can easily record 50 individual guitar tracks on a DAW (digital audio workstation) and have them panned to say maybe 8 different outputs on an audio interface feeding different PA segments, so it still sounds live and spontaneous, but without the big risk of it going very wrong on the day.

Yes, this sounds like a pretty good idea.

I personally wanted them to be live, but it's just not gonna happen this time. I will still produce the recording (it is part of the agreement) so I can make every player record their take so they still feel good about it and at the same time I can ensure the whole thing sounds good.

Thanks for commenting.

[miguelchambergo]

Wonks is on the money...

For 50 guitarists playing live, you'll need some very serious infrastructure that only the big hire companies can provide - as well as the expertise in how to configure it. As he's said, monitoring is also key... acoustic lag will be considerable, and you'll need some way of dealing with that to avoid it all degenerating into a chaotic mush.

Pre-recording and miming on the day would probably be the way to go... but you'll still need significant infrastructure to make sure everyone keeps in apparent sync...

Good luck!

Yes, I will do so.

Thanks for commenting.

[miguelchambergo]

Record the guitarists, and then make them mime for the performance.

This is a show, not a musical event, treat it as such.

Andy

Yes, great advice.

Thank you!

[miguelchambergo]

I agree. Mime. It's going to be difficult as is - no need to make it worse.

Yes, it's a fact.

[MOF]

Substitute 50 guitarists with 50 banjo players, no need for amplifiers?
I’ll get my coat.

[Drew Stephenson]

no need for amplifiers?

Or an audience...

[AlecSp]

I guess someone has seen some of the Rockin 1000. Quite breathtaking - but a mahoosive undertaking, with an appropriately large budget and, I'm sure, plenty of smoke and mirrors.

To try and do this from scratch on a low budget would be insanity and doomed to failure. The fact the OP has come asking on an audio forum demonstrates the demonstrates how far he is from ever achieving this.

Miming is the only viable approach, but even that will require quite some infrastructure to look credible.

[Martin Walker]

There was also a fascinating documentary about the Rockin 1000, when they first attempted a performance of Foo Fighters 'Learn To Fly' - they had HUGE problems getting everybody in sync at first, and ended up with huge 'traffic light' indicators to display the downbeat and other three beats in each bar (shown right at the beginning of the video below). They also had to be really strict with the musician's egos, as otherwise it initially fell apart within seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JozAmXo2bDE