Real time (live) tempo correction

[tony levin]

Hello and thank you for providing this awesome forum. I am a musician who is now starting to explore the use of pre-recorded samples as part of my band's live experience. We are a power trio doing classic rock covers.

Currently I am using Ableton 11 to launch pre-recorded samples activated via a midi controller. In some cases, such as using an effect or sample to start a song, this is not a problem. Press the assigned controller key and play over the sample to start a song. BUT, if I want to launch a sample mid-song, clearly there will be tempo issue, ie the band's tempo vs that of the sample.

Does anyone know if Ableton or any other tool can adjust the tempo of the sample to match that of the band? I know that there are some hardware units with built in ambient mics that do something similar. Otherwise I will need a third hand to play a sliced sample according to band tempo, or, need someone else in the band whose role would be just that. We used to have a keyboard player who managed all this but he is gone.

Any help, suggestions or guidance would be greatly appreciated
tony

[Mike Stranks]

Welcome!

In my limited experience of this approach, it's done with a click-track via in-ear monitors. Thus, the band plays to the backing, and not vice-versa!

[The Elf]

^^ Wot 'e said!

You're in for a world of trouble trying to do it the way you suggest.

I can't say I'd be inclined to use Ableton for this, either. Some dedicated performance software would be my suggestion.

[Wonks]

I believe their are tap tempo pedals that can send MIDI tempo messages. If you can tap along in time, then that could work.

But working with a drummer who can play to a click track is a much better solution. It’s timing-tastic. My last band had one and he was brilliant. Fully house-trained as well (bar the odd accident).

[Sam Spoons]

The TC DittoJam looper pedal can keep time with a drummer using a signal from the supplied microphone. It does actually work too but needs a simple kick or snare pattern to track, anything too clever/complicated can trip it up. But, you can only record a loop and replay as it has no facilities for storing loops.

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm guessing it won't output any kind of timecode signal for anything else to feed off?

[MarkOne]

^^ Wot 'e said!

You're in for a world of trouble trying to do it the way you suggest.

I can't say I'd be inclined to use Ableton for this, either. Some dedicated performance software would be my suggestion.

I’m surprised that you don’t see Ableton as a good tool for this, judging from all the YouTube’s I see out there, Ableton seems to be the go-to tool for loop based performance with a click.(or even non loop based stuff, Adam Neely’s jazz fusion band Sungazer is all polyrhythms, odd time signatures, etc, and they rely on Ableton to run their shows.)

[The Elf]

The OP says he's using 'prerecorded samples', as opposed to 'loops'.

If you're working with loops then Ableton Live might be a good solution, but beyond that I've always found myself fighting it, rather than taking advantage of it. But then I don't use 'loops'.

I honestly don't find Ableton Live (ironically) suitable for live performance. But that's just me. The solution I use takes care of EVERYTHING for me - all I do is hit a footswitch between songs!

[sonics]

... Adam Neely’s jazz fusion band Sungazer is all polyrhythms, odd time signatures, etc, and they rely on Ableton to run their shows.

I do find it disappointing that the MD and conductor of an ensemble of quality players is a computer. Weird times!

[Murray B]

I know very little about Ableton Live but doesn't it have a Follow function for tempo? It might be as easy as routing in the live mix for it to listen too?

Worth an internet / manual search ....

[BigRedX]

From my reading of the OP they are using one-shot audio segments that are triggered at strategic points in the song. If Ableton is capable of using tempo information to calculate the required time-stretching and pitch correction in real time, then it might be do-able. Otherwise you will either need to play those songs that have additions in the middle to a click track or convert your samples into 1/8 or 1/16 note sequences so that can be played back at slight tempo variations without being to noticeable.

[tony levin]

WOW !
Thank you all for so many suggestions, ideas and feedback. As I suspected, this is not an easy issue to resolve. I have never used click tracks but after speaking to some touring musicians, they aren't all on board with this approach. I am a newbie at this aspect of live performance.
Just for context, I'll give you an example of what I am trying to do. For the classic rock lovers in this thread, you certainly know the song Radar Love. There is a segment in the middle instrumental part where a synthesizer accompanies the main riff on bass and guitar. It builds and then introduces horns to the mix.
Just a single guitar and bass doing this run becomes stale quickly. At the moment that part starts in the song, I simply hit a MIDI controller key and that sample is ready play and re-enforce the guitar and bass playing live. Problem is the drummer is not at the same tempo as the sample. So, I'm looking at something that can detect his tempo and adjust in real time the stretch of the sample. There have been a couple of replies in this thread that might provide a solution.
Thank you all for chiming in. If I find a way, I'll certainly let you know

[Wonks]

Could you not treat each segment in the build-up as a different sample, so you trigger the next sample using a footswitch every two bars, rather than have the whole build-up as a single sample? I know that solution should work for Radar Love, but could it work for other songs as well?

Drummers can either work with click tracks or they can’t. The last gig I saw (just over a week ago) the drummer (and the band) were obviously using clicks as the singer was perfectly in time with a video of theirs from the late 80s/early 90s projected above them.

It may take a little while to master but if you want to keep the trio format whilst triggering long samples, then it really is worth giving it a go. It doesn’t need to be an actual headphone click, it can be a visual indication, there are MIDI tempo to light devices around.

Having a click doesn’t mean that you can’t push and pull the note timings, but it does allow you to work easily with samples the way you want to.

There’s also tempo detection prior to the start of the sample start, but if the drummer can’t keep exact time for a long single sample playback, you then require the software to constantly change the playback tempo and stretch or compact the sample on the fly, which isn’t a good thing IMO to be going on, and is very open to mishits or a dropped stick totally confusing any tempo calculating software.

So I’d definitely consider using some form of click, whether audio or visual, or else split the sample up into sections that can be triggered manually every one or two bars with a footswitch.

[rockydennis]

What if you split the guitar signal, and send one to a synth pedal (or a guitar to midi device, and send that to a synth), so you're double tracking your guitar with another sound. I think that could work well for Radar Love, not sure about whatever other songs you are performing.

[Wonks]

Yes, definitely some scope for a synth pedal like an SY300 on Radar Love, but it might be a reasonably hefty outlay and time investment just for one song. But if you have other songs where synth chords would be appropriate, something to consider?

Otherwise I’d just try and either rearrange the songs so you don’t need the samples or move to other songs that don’t need them. Or else get a keyboard player in again.

[James Perrett]

It is also worth saying that a click track doesn't have to be a click. Many drummers use a drum machine pattern that is similar in feel to the pattern that they will be playing.

[MarkOne]

You just need to make sure it's really clear in the drummer's IEMs

Last night due to a combination of a tiny stage area and bar geometry trapping the backline sound and a very noisy crowd, the drummer lost the click briefly and our cover of Rio was half a bar behind for the rest of the song. Fortunately only the drummer and I really knew as we are the only ones on IEMs and although the synth arpeggios were a bit weird, everyone was having enough of a fine old time* to either notice or care

Also, the rest of the band need to know the song really well! There is no missing your cue and waiting for the band to play another 4 bars** The click and backing don't know you've missed!

*Alchohol was involved

**It's embarrassing to have to halt the click and start again (don't ask me how I know)

[BigRedX]

Last night due to a combination of a tiny stage area and bar geometry trapping the backline sound and a very noisy crowd, the drummer lost the click briefly and our cover of Rio was half a bar behind for the rest of the song. Fortunately only the drummer and I really knew as we are the only ones on IEMs and although the synth arpeggios were a bit weird, everyone was having enough of a fine old time* to either notice or care

Back in the late 90s at the first gig with our new and very good drummer (he was an ex-session player who had previously worked in Nashville) he decided that instead of sticking to the standard "4 on the floor" kick drum intro for our final song, he'd add a bit of interesting syncopation with the result that the rest of the band completely lost the plot rhythmically and we played the whole song half a bar behind the MIDI controlled backing which made the harmonic structure of the song a bit more "interesting" than it would normally have been. At least the rest of the band finished after the backing rather than us stopping and the "invisible synth player" carrying on. Of course no-one other than the band noticed - not even the previous guitarist and drummer who'd come to see us and had played that song when they were in the band.

[sonics]

At least the rest of the band finished after the backing rather than us stopping and the "invisible synth player" carrying on. Of course no-one other than the band noticed - not even the previous guitarist and drummer who'd come to see us and had played that song when they were in the band.

So, so common...

I refuse to work with the Track brothers (Click and Backing); they're so dull, and never have a drink with you after the gig.

[BigRedX]

I refuse to work with the Track brothers (Click and Backing); they're so dull, and never have a drink with you after the gig.

OtOH they don't need a cut of the gig money or get so drunk they are unable to play. Also they don't take forever to set up their kit. The drummer and second synth player for Hurtsfall fit in a 3U rack case and are set up ready to play in less than 5 minutes from arriving in the venue.

[The Elf]

Click tracks are all well and good, but I wouldn't be without my visual cue system to let me know where in the song we are!

[Drew Stephenson]

Click tracks are all well and good, but I wouldn't be without my visual cue system to let me know where in the song we are!

I'm the songwriter and the lead singer, we're wherever I say we are!

[Sam Spoons]

Me too

[S2]

Click tracks are all well and good, but I wouldn't be without my visual cue system to let me know where in the song we are!

I'm the songwriter and the lead singer, we're wherever I say we are!

Which isn’t necessarily where other band members are or think they are…