Virtuosity

[tea for two]

Perhaps I'm over generalising.

In Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Far East, Middle East, virtuosity on an instrument is venerated.

In India some consider musical virtuosos as gods.
Giving the term Pandit, Ustad to their musical virtuosos.
Perhaps it is because these virtuosos link a Sacred element to their virtuosity.

To me it is important to link virtuosity to Sacredness, to Sensitivity, to Melody.
Such that it does something for the player as well as for the listener.
We have virtuosos from these isles that do this, perhaps were they Indian they too would be called Pandit, Ustad.

To me virtuosity is a gift honed through blood sweat tears.

Yet I feel virtuosity for the sake of displaying virtuosity is a slap in the face to this gift.
When this occurs it is understandable to me that it switches off various people.

At the same time having to hide this gift is a bit of a tragedy.
It is like telling Usain Bolt he can only walk never run.

::

My self being bang average I know I don't require even a smidgen of virtuosity to make the music I make.
I just require some sensitivity some judgement.

I recall a famous multi millions records selling band saying if we were better musically we'd be rubbish lol.

I personally laud virtuosity that's linked to Sacredness, Sensitivity, Melody.

Around 2011 just after I'd given up on making music realising I was utterly carp (cr*p) lol this lasted nearly a decade

I had vivid dreams of me performing infront of tens of thousands at prestigious concert venues.
In these dreams I started out carp which is true thereafter I launched into virtuoso astounding the audience.

Was an amazing feeling because people realised I wasn't carp lol also because of me being a virtuoso in my dreams being able to play whatever I imagined.

[Exalted Wombat]

I had vivid dreams of me performing infront of tens of thousands at prestigious concert venues.
In these dreams I started out carp which is true thereafter I launched into virtuoso astounding the audience.

Not being carp was a good move. If nothing else, the strings get rusty.

[tea for two]

For me from these isles Guitarists as David Gilmour, Gary Moore, Gordon Giltrap, Jeff Beck, Julian Bream, Mark Knopfler, Mike Oldfield, Peter Green, Robert Fripp, Steve Hackett, Steve Hillage, Steve Howe,

were they Indian they would be named Pandit, Ustad.
Some in India would venerate them as gods as there is something of the sacredness when they are deep into their playing, alongside sensitivity, melody (also fun humour jauntyness).

::

It's easy to knock virtuosity if someone is just showing off, a million mph, a gazillion notes : then I get that they are asking for it lol.

Yet to me true virtuosity linked as it is to sacredness, sensitivity, melody is above and beyond derision instead it deserves a form of veneration.

::

Exalted Wombat I dig your sig. It's a reason I tend to keep my music to myself lol.

[merlyn]

When asked about virtuosity Frank Zappa said "I am not a virtuoso. A virtuoso can play anything. I can only play what I know."

Dweezil Zappa has also used that. So by that definition those guitarists are not virtuosos. They're good, but they play what they know.

[tea for two]

When asked about virtuosity Frank Zappa said "I am not a virtuoso. A virtuoso can play anything. I can only play what I know."

I would say this sense of humility from Frank is also present in those Guitarists from these isles they would probably say "I'm just messing aboooot, I'm just a beginner."

To be able to play anything is such a worldwide thing that I'd say no person could do this in real life : only in their dreams.

[Sam Spoons]

But virtuosos can't play it until they know it can they?

[merlyn]

But virtuosos can't play it until they know it can they?

If they're a good sight reader, like Tommy Tedesco, they could. And by the end they'll know it. There's also musicians who can improvise on pretty much anything by ear.

I should make an exception for Julian Bream in the list above.

[Drew Stephenson]

I just had a shufti for an actual definition of 'virtuoso' - google gave me this: a person highly skilled in music or another artistic pursuit.

I'm going posit that 'highly skilled' does not always mean 'technically proficient' and vice versa.

I'm wandering into this thread somewhat dangerously as a) I'm about as far from 'highly skilled' as your likely to find for anyone who owns this many instruments, and b) I'm generally with Emperor Joseph II about the 'too many notes' school of music (of whatever flavour).

But I recall a gig by Boo Hewerdine many years ago, where he played for about an hour and a half, and in the entire time I noticed one slight, tiny really, mis-fretting. The only reason I noticed it was because I had become aware of what a flawless performance it was.

Was it technically challenging? Probably not from a musical perspective. Was it a singer-songwriter virtuoso performance? I'd say yes.

[merlyn]

Depending on what his ego is like, I'd say Boo Hewerdine would fall about laughing if you told him he was a virtuoso.

He may, though, be an artist. According to Picasso : "It took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child." An artist, even if they have skill, may choose not to use it, and throw cans of Dulux at the canvas.

Salvador Dali had a lot of technique. Damien Hirst may or may not, but we don't see it.

[OneWorld]

In India some consider musical virtuosos as gods.

In India some venerate the cow, we eat them.

[ManFromGlass]

more than one way to appreciate the same thing?

[Drew Stephenson]

Depending on what his ego is like, I'd say Boo Hewerdine would fall about laughing if you told him he was a virtuoso.

I strongly suspect you're right, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I'm reminded of the old machining test of being given a randomly-shaped hunk of metal and being asked to make a perfect 2" cube from it.
The final product is not technically complex but you have to be highly skilled to produce it perfectly.

He may, though, be an artist. According to Picasso : "It took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child." An artist, even if they have skill, may choose not to use it, and throw cans of Dulux at the canvas.

Salvador Dali had a lot of technique. Damien Hirst may or may not, but we don't see it.

I think we're into the old 'understand the rules so that you can knowingly and deliberately break them' here aren't we? I think that's a slightly different discussion.

[OneWorld]

more than one way to appreciate the same thing?

OK, I'll start from the front end and you start from the back end

[merlyn]

... I'm reminded of the old machining test of being given a randomly-shaped hunk of metal and being asked to make a perfect 2" cube from it.
The final product is not technically complex but you have to be highly skilled to produce it perfectly.

I see. So you have 2" metal cubes hanging on your walls? Also I don't think your mate Boo would like to be compared to a 2" metal cube. By your own definition virtuosity is skill in an artistic pursuit.

Is the full Joseph II story not that he said "Too many notes", to which Mozart responded by farting and saying "There's some more"? The way I look at it Joseph II was a bit clueless.

[awjoe]

Virtuosity has to occur with and be balanced with at least one other musical excellence in order not to be tedious.

Just cuz you're fast and clever doesn't mean you make great music.

[ManFromGlass]

True, but there will always be at least one person who appreciates it as great music.

[Drew Stephenson]

... I'm reminded of the old machining test of being given a randomly-shaped hunk of metal and being asked to make a perfect 2" cube from it.
The final product is not technically complex but you have to be highly skilled to produce it perfectly.

I see. So you have 2" metal cubes hanging on your walls? Also I don't think your mate Boo would like to be compared to a 2" metal cube. By your own definition virtuosity is skill in an artistic pursuit.

I think we might be talking at cross purposes, this is the danger or metaphors and I should know better.
My point, and I'll try and stick to it, was that Boo's performance that night, whilst not technically complex, was highly skilled as an artistic performance.
Therefore my argument is that virtuosity is not necessarily demonstrated by the ability to play many notes quickly and accurately, but simply to play exactly the right notes, in exactly the right way, to transmit the artistic intent.

Is the full Joseph II story not that he said "Too many notes", to which Mozart responded by farting and saying "There's some more"? The way I look at it Joseph II was a bit clueless.

My understanding was that Mozart's retort was "No more than necessary" or something like that. I too suspect that Joseph II wasn't the sharpest tool in the box, but that's probably just another thing he and I have in common.

[Martin Walker]

Virtuosity has to occur with and be balanced with at least one other musical excellence in order not to be tedious.

Just cuz you're fast and clever doesn't mean you make great music.

I have to admit that I've thought this about Rick Wakeman on occasion. For all his absolutely classic keyboard lines, there are nevertheless quite a few that to my ears are a morass of frilly baroque ornamentation

[merlyn]

... Therefore my argument is that virtuosity is not necessarily demonstrated by the ability to play many notes quickly and accurately, but simply to play exactly the right notes, in exactly the right way, to transmit the artistic intent.

It's a rather niche definition of virtuosity. OK, so this was a concert you enjoyed, but why do want to bring virtuosity into it? I imagine you went to Boo Hewerdine because you don't like virtuosity in the usual definition. Logically speaking we have ended up with "not being a virtuoso is being a virtuoso". Kind of annoying, self-reflexive, philosophical garbage.

[Drew Stephenson]

Funnily enough I disagree. I don't think that highly skilled necessarily means being able to play lots of notes very quickly. You could programme a machine to do that. I don't think that would meet the definition of being a virtuoso?
The concert in question was a (near)flawless performance of great skill - technically far better than many of his peers; I'm not sure what definition of virtuoso that wouldn't meet?

[merlyn]

... Just cuz you're fast and clever doesn't mean you make great music.

Just cuz you're slow and a bit thick ... well. Guitar is particularly bad for this with shredding being a thing but ... some guitarists play fast. Some guitarists play music fast.

[merlyn]

The concert in question was a (near)flawless performance of great skill - technically far better than many of his peers; I'm not sure what definition of virtuoso that wouldn't meet?

(There are plenty of guitarist jokes, so don't take this the wrong way.)

Q : What is the difference between a singer/songwriter and a puppy?

A : The puppy eventually stops whining.

So ... if you said to a friend "It was a virtuoso performance," what do you think your friend would expect? Strumming? There you are sitting in the concert thinking "Wow, listen to all those notes he didn't play".

I would suggest virtuoso is a mostly classical music thing, where practicing eight hours a day is the norm. There are not many virtuosos. I would suggest Oscar Peterson.

[Drew Stephenson]

I would suggest you've never heard Boo Hewerdine play.

I also suggest that we're not going to meet on this issue so I'll leave it there.

[tea for two]

I would consider Wendy Carlos a virtuoso on Moog modular.

[awjoe]

I would suggest virtuoso is a mostly classical music thing, where practicing eight hours a day is the norm.

Classical, jazz, rock, bluegrass. Chris Thile's a virtuoso, and so's Billy Strings.

"a person who excels in the performance of an art - especially a skilled musician."

We can discuss 'excel in the performance of' if you like.

There are not many virtuosos. I would suggest Oscar Peterson.

Now you're talking. Oscar Peterson was both a virtuoso and a delight to listen to.

By contrast:

Yngwie Malmsteen

Van Halen

Steve Vai

Maybe it's just guitarists who leave me cold. I was raised on hippie rock, but I even find some Garcia and Hendrix solos a bit of a yawn (and I love Hendrix and the Dead).

When technique dominates, it's left-brain second-bestness. It's like the difference between dance and gymnastics.