Latency when using hardware with Reaper.

[Arpangel]

I’ve got a compressor inserted in a track using ReaInsert, I’m playing a VSTi through it, and I’m getting noticeable latency.
I’ve pinged ReaInsert, but it still sounds pretty bad, I’m wondering how I can adjust the overall latency in Reaper.

[Drew Stephenson]

What are your current sample rates and buffer sizes?

[Wonks]

You've got the standard VSTi latency then the extra interface round-trip latency. You aren't going to make it unnoticeable.

Can you play and record the MIDI data without the compressor and then add it in afterwards when playing the MIDI back? Or if you really cant play without a compressor, use a software one when playing and then substitute the hardware one afterwards when playing the MIDI back?

[The Elf]

Using external insert hardware through an AI/DAW will always introduce latency from the round-trip through D-A/A-D stages.

On playback your DAW can compensate for it, but if you're wanting to use it in real time you'll need to get creative with your signal chain to patch it in directly while tracking to avoid latency, then patch it into your DAW as an external insert later when latency isn't an issue.

[Wonks]

On playback your DAW can compensate for it, but if you're wanting to use it in real time you'll need to get creative with your signal chain to patch it in directly while tracking to avoid latency, then patch it into your DAW as an external insert later when latency isn't an issue.

But he can’t patch it in ‘directly’ when tracking anymore than now as he’s using a VSTi!

[The Elf]

On playback your DAW can compensate for it, but if you're wanting to use it in real time you'll need to get creative with your signal chain to patch it in directly while tracking to avoid latency, then patch it into your DAW as an external insert later when latency isn't an issue.

But he can’t patch it in ‘directly’ when tracking anymore than now as he’s using a VSTi!

So you use a hardware instrument to pseudo it (which is what I was implying). At least that's what I would do - or, as you suggested, not bother with the external processing for a couple of minutes, just to get the MIDI recorded...

[Arpangel]

Thanks all, I could as you suggested, record Midi, and then process through the mixer, or, put the interface outputs into the mixer permanently, so I can use all my outboard without latency, this issue keeps cropping up, and it’s a good argument for not using my interface as a main monitor source, it’s very limiting.

[Aled Hughes]

I’ve never had much luck with ReaInsert and latency compensation- it just never seems to work as it should - or at least not for long - and can suddey change from one playback to another. It’s fine for running the whole mix through something of course, as there is nothing to keep in sync.

[Arpangel]

I’ve never had much luck with ReaInsert and latency compensation- it just never seems to work as it should - or at least not for long - and can suddey change from one playback to another. It’s fine for running the whole mix through something of course, as there is nothing to keep in sync.

I could run a couple of outputs back my mixer, I can’t run the main out on my interface through it, as the C/R monitor section of my mixer is very limited, you can only monitor the main L/R out, not the groups, which is no good when recording and monitoring sub-groups.
I’m just going to have to go with Reinsert, it’s very useful to use it on VSTi's, I use it on one instrument at a time, so latency isn’t a deal breaker, it just feels sloppy when I’m playing.

[Wonks]

Have you tried playing when wearing headphones? That will cut down on the slight latency provided by the distance between you and the monitors. If you are 4 feet away, that’s another 4ms of delay to add to the interface and computer latency.

On its own it’s not much, but when added to the other latencies, it could be a significant amount, depending on the basic system latency. There’s a big difference between say 12ms delay, where you may or may not notice a slight lag, and 16ms, where you certainly will notice. But probably less effect between say 20ms and 24ms.

[Arpangel]

Have you tried playing when wearing headphones? That will cut down on the slight latency provided by the distance between you and the monitors. If you are 4 feet away, that’s another 4ms of delay to add to the interface and computer latency.

On its own it’s not much, but when added to the other latencies, it could be a significant amount, depending on the basic system latency. There’s a big difference between say 12ms delay, where you may or may not notice a slight lag, and 16ms, where you certainly will notice. But probably less effect between say 20ms and 24ms.

Good idea, I’ll give it a go.

[Matt Houghton]

As others have said, you will always get latency when you go through converters.

The key things to do are to reduce the audio sample buffer to as low as you can reliably go without problems (crackles, pops etc) and use as few stages of conversion as possible in your signal/monitoring chain.

In theory, a higher sample rate will also reduce latency (because a buffer is set in number of samples, not number of milliseconds), though to benefit from that you'll need a fast computer that can handle it. Also, some interfaces (both for the MIDI input and the audio in/out) exhibit more latency than others. (I remember one USB MIDI keyboard I had just added a huge amount of latency for no reason... despite others in the same range being fine!)

If going to the hardware after a VSTi, you have several stages there: MIDI in to VSTi, audio out (D-A stage) to hardware, audio in (A-D stage) from hardware, and another D-A stage for monitoring. You should be able to reduce that! Eg, instead of using ReaInsert, just send the output of the VST through the compressor (as a regular audio output, not ReaInsert) and use your interface's (near) zero-latency monitoring of the input from the compressor to monitor what you're playing. Alternatively, use a software compressor (one which doesn't add latency) as an approximation while you play, and swap that out for the hardware one only for playback/mixing.

[Arpangel]

As others have said, you will always get latency when you go through converters.

The key things to do are to reduce the audio sample buffer to as low as you can reliably go without problems (crackles, pops etc) and use as few stages of conversion as possible in your signal/monitoring chain.

In theory, a higher sample rate will also reduce latency (because a buffer is set in number of samples, not number of milliseconds), though to benefit from that you'll need a fast computer that can handle it. Also, some interfaces (both for the MIDI input and the audio in/out) exhibit more latency than others. (I remember one USB MIDI keyboard I had just added a huge amount of latency for no reason... despite others in the same range being fine!)

If going to the hardware after a VSTi, you have several stages there: MIDI in to VSTi, audio out (D-A stage) to hardware, audio in (A-D stage) from hardware, and another D-A stage for monitoring. You should be able to reduce that! Eg, instead of using ReaInsert, just send the output of the VST through the compressor (as a regular audio output, not ReaInsert) and use your interface's (near) zero-latency monitoring of the input from the compressor to monitor what you're playing. Alternatively, use a software compressor (one which doesn't add latency) as an approximation while you play, and swap that out for the hardware one only for playback/mixing.

Thanks, I think I’ll ditch ReaInsert and do as you said, just a regular audio output, I’ll see how it goes.
I want to use this compressor, it really makes VSTi's sound good, takes the edge off of digital sounding ones, and makes my Rhodes sounds much better, just makes everything more playable.

[tea for two]

I’ve got a compressor ....

I want to use this compressor, it really makes VSTi's sound good, takes the edge off of digital sounding ones, and makes my Rhodes sounds much better

Which one the C2021 ?

[sonics]

I want to use this compressor, it really makes VSTi's sound good, takes the edge off of digital sounding ones, and makes my Rhodes sounds much better, just makes everything more playable.

Although I don't know your music, the more I read your posts on this forum the more I get to understand (sometimes!) what you seem to like. I think compressors are definitely one of your "things". I think you've got an older computer, too? Have you ever thought about an old Focusrite LiquidMix. If you can run it (it's Firewire), I think you'd love all the flavours of compression on it's menu. About £50 to buy. It has knobs, too. TLA C1 is one of the models...

[Arpangel]

Which one the C2021 ?

Yes.

Although I don't know your music, the more I read your posts on this forum the more I get to understand (sometimes!) what you seem to like. I think compressors are definitely one of your "things". I think you've got an older computer, too? Have you ever thought about an old Focusrite LiquidMix. If you can run it (it's Firewire), I think you'd love all the flavours of compression on it's menu. About £50 to buy. It has knobs, too. TLA C1 is one of the models...

It’s a TLA2021
If I use it "properly" it gives very transparent compression, but if I drive it so that the meters go mental, hi input gain, high everything, with a fast attack, slow release, it sounds incredible, it makes a Rhodes very "sensuous" to play, it’s almost like that slightly pumping compression you hear on old 50’s/60’s films.
I don’t like it on a mix, but on individual instruments it’s fabulous.
Liquid mix sounds very interesting, I wasn’t aware of what it actually did, I’ll check it out.
I’m running Mac and PC, my PC is more up to date.

[Wonks]

It's unlikely to work on a PC. Focusrite dropped support after only around 4 years because they didn't write any drivers themselves for it, rendering it useless after a certain Windows update (or possibly it was the introduction of Win10). So I ended up with £500 of junk. Which is why I'll never use Focusrite products ever again.

I think you'll have better luck running it on a Mac.

If there's any chance of using it on a PC you'll need to use legacy Firewire drivers and find an old software version of the LiquidMix suite that has all the support software on it, not just the drivers. It definitely won't work with just the last basic software version installed, you'll need that full package (check the file download size as it's considerably larger) and then install the latest software.

It was very good when it worked and I know Max said he couldn't tell the difference between some emulations and the modelled hardware in an A/B test he did.

[Arpangel]

It's unlikely to work on a PC. Focusrite dropped support after only around 4 years because they didn't write any drivers themselves for it, rendering it useless after a certain Windows update. So I ended up with £500 of junk. Which is why I'll never use Focusrite products ever again.

I think you'll have better luck running it on a Mac.

If there's any chance of using it on a PC you'll need to use legacy Firewire drivers and find an old software version of the LiquidMix suite that has all the support software on it, not just the drivers. It definitely won't work with just the last basic software version installed, you'll need that full package (check the file download size as it's considerably larger) and then install the latest software.

It was very good when it worked and I know Max said he couldn't tell the difference between some emulations and the modelled hardware in an A/B test he did.

Thanks, sounds like too much of a faff, I’m happy with the TLA at the moment. But it’s piqued my interest, I may hire a couple of things, but as usual, trying to get better can turn out to be worse, it sounds good now!

[The Elf]

There are better options for chameleon compression in the Focurite zoo...

One of my favourite bits of gear - two of them here, in a stereo config, and connected digitally, so only a couple of samples of latency, hence just like using a plug-in; the DAW can automatically compensate - Cubase can, at least.

Agnostic to the vagaries of computer OS too.

[tea for two]

I saw the liquidmix around £40 in cex computer exchange in angel islington or holloway I can't recall couple months ago.
I didn't get it as something made me think mebe it wouldnt work on mac mohave or wind10.
I vaguely recall liquidmix being discussed a fair amount on SoS after it was released.

There's a liquidmix online on cex at the moment £42 with 14 day returns full refund.

::

I get most of my gear (audio, phone, mac, wind, camera) from cex online because if it's not for me I have 14days to return it to any cex store for full refund (online purchase only) by taking it back to any cex store : they test it when returning upto 3hours wait depending what other items they are testing.
If I keep it there's 2years warranty included.
Cex prices are comparable to a well known auction site sometimes cex is cheaper.

I don't purchase instore in cex because only get 2days to return and they refund as a voucher not the way you paid if purchasing instore.

[Arpangel]

There's a liquidmix online on cex at the moment £42 with 14 day returns full refund.

There’s some bits of expensive gear that come out, and you just think "I’ll see that in a charity shop or a boot fair in a couple of years for forty quid "what’s your best on it mate, take twenty?"
I’ve bought a couple of things from CEX, Arcam CD player, and a Novation KS4, they are a bit OTT with their prices, but, sometimes things slip through the net.

[sonics]

I remember the one in Notting Hill Gate(?) when I lived in London decades ago. I always thought the prices were too steep for the good stuff, and the cheaper stuff tended to be junk.

Do you still have the Novation? I love mine!

[Arpangel]

I remember the one in Notting Hill Gate(?) when I lived in London decades ago. I always thought the prices were too steep for the good stuff, and the cheaper stuff tended to be junk.

Do you still have the Novation? I love mine!

Wasn’t that the Notting Hill Record And Tape Exchange? There were two shops there, records, and gear.
I got lots of stuff there, I can remember seeing on the shelves AMS RMX16’s, Eventide 910, one day there was a Prophet 10 standing on its end, I was blown away by how big it was!

[sonics]

Wasn’t that the Notting Hill Record And Tape Exchange? There were two shops there, records, and gear.

Yes, that was the place. Lots of old HiFi, and overpriced Quad gear.
I don't recall seeing anything like AMXs. That must have happened later on before they were worth money again.