What is Jazz

[GilesAnt]

And, as soon as you introduce rhythm into music, it’s not free.

And since rhythm (swing, syncopation etc) is such a key characteristic of jazz you have confirmed my view.

[Arpangel]

And, as soon as you introduce rhythm into music, it’s not free.

And since rhythm (swing, syncopation etc) is such a key characteristic of jazz you have confirmed my view.

Yes, I know this is a bit extreme, but rhythm kills music for me, it always has done, since I can remember, I use it loosely in my own music, but mostly not at all, I think "cycles of repetition" is another way of putting it, but they are never tied or locked to a beat as such.
It’s all related to the human heartbeat, and the fact that it will stop some day, our destination, again, I don’t subscribe to that view either, and it’s reflected in my music, I can’t look at it any other way, even if I wanted to.
There are two obvious characteristics about my music, that the listener should be aware of, no destination, and no conclusions, nothing is "resolved"

[tea for two]

Were I to play Trumpet people would say I'm copying Miles and Chet. I'd say maaaaan what legends to copy.

Concierto d orange juice (Brassed Off reference lol)
is one of my favourite Jazz interpretation.
Although some may say these interpretations aren't all that Jazzy.

Miles' interpretation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CsWidlDldVk

Chet and Desmond's interpretation
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XeJODyxPGso

Brassed Off (filum based upon when coal mines closed and the town of Grimethorpe's struggles,
alongside Grimethorpe Colliery Brass Band's struggle for survival)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zo8hIc7DpuE
Based upon actual events makes it poignant for me.
This for me is the essence of Jazz.
Our personal emancipation from our personal struggles.

[GilesAnt]

You can have music which is just as poignant and expressive without it being jazz. Jazz doesn't have a monopoly on this - think Dido's Lament, or The War Requiem just for starters.

So again, talking about freedom/emancipation doesn't really help to define what jazz actually is. Any musical style or genre will have features that can be identified in musical terms, even if that isn't always easy.

[RichardT]

My favorite definition (given earlier in this thread) is that jazz = musical freedom. If that's so, then trying to define it by common characteristics is totally missing the point, all fine and well for cataloging purposes, but not very inspirational. Subverting expectations is also great fun for a jazz player, so maybe that's a good reason for trying to define it, just to create the opportunity to disprove the definition.

I don't agree with this at all! All genres offer freedom in their own way. Indian classical music, baroque western classical, African drumming, rock, blues, folk and country all allow improvisation and many other genres too.

Even when the notes are written down, the performer has enormous freedom with the tempo, dynamics, phrasing, rubato etc to build their own performance.

Likewise composers of western classical music have total freedom to write whatever they want. You could argue that this is more freedom than a jazz soloist has when they are playing over a rapid set of changes.

[tea for two]

You can have music which is just as poignant and expressive without it being jazz. Jazz doesn't have a monopoly on this - think Dido's Lament, or The War Requiem just for starters.

So again, talking about freedom/emancipation doesn't really help to define what jazz actually is. Any musical style or genre will have features that can be identified in musical terms, even if that isn't always easy.

I don't think we can define any music. We can loosely say somethings about it's parameters as it were : whether Country, HipHop, Baroque.
Mos def such naming of styles helps us to get to the gist of it, which would be rather difficult if we were trying to describe say Country.

Also it's such a personal thing. I'm sorry to say both of those pieces does very little for me, however I understand they are poignant for many.
Whereas Górecki pieces do a lot for me. Whereas others may well find Górecki does very little for them.

It is personal hence me saying our personal emancipation : we can get this from any music from any style including Jazz.

Jazz upto and including Civil Rights movement is intertwined with a specific struggle of a specific group of people : a struggle perhaps none of us here know hence many of us tend to see Jazz as musical only also something technical.

[GilesAnt]

It is personal hence me saying our personal emancipation : we can get this from any music from any style including Jazz.

In which case how does this help us define specifically what jazz is?

[merlyn]

My favorite definition (given earlier in this thread) is that jazz = musical freedom. If that's so, then trying to define it by common characteristics is totally missing the point, all fine and well for cataloging purposes, but not very inspirational. ...

Another vote for "just feel it, man". I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but once you say "just feel it, man" you're done with this topic. For example someone could say "there are a lot of ii V Is" to which the answer is "just feel it, man" or "there is extended and altered harmony" to which the answer, again, is "just feel it, man", if you see what I mean.

[BWC]

My favorite definition (given earlier in this thread) is that jazz = musical freedom. If that's so, then trying to define it by common characteristics is totally missing the point, all fine and well for cataloging purposes, but not very inspirational. ...

Another vote for "just feel it, man". I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but once you say "just feel it, man" you're done with this topic. For example someone could say "there are a lot of ii V Is" to which the answer is "just feel it, man" or "there is extended and altered harmony" to which the answer, again, is "just feel it, man", if you see what I mean.

Not exactly, I very much see the value of analyzing what's been done, and using what you learn to help inform what you do, just not in seeking defining characteristics (of jazz, at least). Also, I would never say "just feel it, man." I would say don't forget to feel it, but jazz usually involves both thinking and feeling. Maybe that's a defining characteristic, the balance between the two.

[floppydrive]

A recent conversation between me & the wife:

wife to me: "I don't like jazz"
Me to wife: "why not dear"
wife to me: "because it sounds like they're making it up as they go along"

True story

[merlyn]

... I would say don't forget to feel it, but jazz usually involves both thinking and feeling. Maybe that's a defining characteristic, the balance between the two.

I would agree with that. A jazz drummer said to me that the heart and the head are required, and that seemed right to me.

[sonics]

I don't agree with this at all! All genres offer freedom in their own way. Indian classical music, baroque western classical, African drumming, rock, blues, folk and country all allow improvisation and many other genres too.

Exactly. I don't think anyone would ever describe an Indian classical concert as jazz, yet they are using themes and then playing with the same freedom.

As for emancipation, I just image all the middle class dinner parties that have taken place to the sound of Kind of Blue. That was the sound of privilege for some time.

[tea for two]

Mention of Indian Classical alongside Jazz reminded me of Trilok Gurtu.
After Evelyn Glennie my favourite percussionist,
Trilok is probably my 2nd favourite percussionist.
Trilok usually most of the time sat on the floor.

Here is Joe Zawinul with Trilok in 1994
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VQWKbUC57_8
24min50sec Tablas intertwining with Joe's chanting and Keyboards.

::

Also I just remembered Bheki Mseleku South African Pianist Guitarist Saxophonist, composer arranger.
Bheki's Jazz was partially shaped by apartheid alongside his spirituality.
https://m.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEA&s ... the+stars+

::

Tony Scott Jazz Clarinetist.
His album
Music for Zen Meditation in 1964 combined Clarinet with Koto played by Shinichi Yuize and Shakuhachi played by Hōzan Yamamoto.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvyvihNiFfg

[tea for two]

Alice Coltrane : Harp.
Pharoah Sanders : Saxophone.

Journey in Satchidananda (Hindu Saint Swami Satchidananda)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQtEFdyhgdE#searching

Shiva-Loka
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EPzozPT5V0o

Isis and Osiris at Village Gate 1970
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cdHrCAIE7XM

[Arpangel]

Instruments define genre, if you want to invent a new sound, or genre, just change the arrangement.

[GilesAnt]

Instruments define genre, if you want to invent a new sound, or genre, just change the arrangement.

It takes a lot more than that to invent a new genre. Rearranging a Beethoven symphony for a piano duet is hardly creating a new genre.

[GilesAnt]

In any case jazz pretty much existing instruments

[BWC]

...jazz = musical freedom...

I don't agree with this at all! All genres offer freedom in their own way...

And, as soon as you introduce rhythm into music, it’s not free.

And since rhythm (swing, syncopation etc) is such a key characteristic of jazz you have confirmed my view.

I didn't say absolute freedom. I said, "musical freedom", as in freedom within a musical context. I also didn't say that jazz had a monopoly on musical freedom, but I do think it's more free (or at least feels more free), and more about freedom.

[Arpangel]

Instruments define genre, if you want to invent a new sound, or genre, just change the arrangement.

It takes a lot more than that to invent a new genre. Rearranging a Beethoven symphony for a piano duet is hardly creating a new genre.

Adding more reverb, or a "wicked" bass drum can go a long way.

[tea for two]

Rick Beato 19hours earlier posted his conversation with Keith Jarrett.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xgL30jDhoQU
To me the part of Keith's playing on his records and concerts that makes me appreciative is Keith including styles as Bach, Calypso, Country, Gospel, Latin.