mixing contests

[Aaron Straley]

Please share thoughts and experiences on the various mixing contests available on the internet. I've personally been using these to practice and get better at mixing. This because they preset a variety of different genres, and at the moment, seems like the best way to practice and get feedback on my mixes. I just wonder what you all think about them, and if they are worth the time, in your opinion.

Want to add that most all winning mixes come in at at least -10Lufs, and often louder than this. It surely can be done without sounding overly compressed. This contradicts the thought process that -14 or -12 is a good loudness level. Obviuosly, this depends a bit on the genre, but I don't agree that the loudness wars are over. To me listening across the platforms of Amazon, soundcould and youtube, folks are making these mixes as loud as possible. I dont have Spotify right now. But I cant hear that the others are lowering the loudness levels

[The Elf]

The loudness wars are over. Ignore that and witness how your mixes sound on something like YouTube - you won't like what they do to it.

'Loud' mixes aren't just about overall volume - I've witnessed plenty of weedy-sounding mixes keeping the 0dB light busy and screaming power-house mixes that stay well within the new guidance. This is the skill of mixing.

Ignore the content provider's loudness guidance at your peril.

[Aaron Straley]

I get it. -12 can sound louder (and better) than -10 just because of the way it was mixed. A highly skilled mixer is able to achieve this because of their experience and knowledge. None the less, I stand firm that most mainstream music (pop, rock, hip hop) is coming through the streaming services as loud as they can make it. If loudness wars are over, why is this? Are my perceptions inaccurate that most commercial mixes are coming in -10 or louder?

Obviously this is just for the sake of conversation on an open forum. I am still confused by the statement that loudness wars are over.

[The Elf]

They are over, because if you stray over the limits set by the big-name content providers they will turn your music down. It's as simple as that.

Of course it is 'as loud as they can make it' - but this is within the new loudness regime.

So you can accept this and make your mix sound as 'loud as possible' (if that's what you want) within these limitations.

Or...

You can still brick-wall your mixes, as long as you understand and accept what will happen to it once it leaves your hands and enters the control of your chosen content provider.

It's just a choice.

[Aaron Straley]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's all easily confusing for a novice like me. Part of this confusion stems from the different target levels for each streaming platform and some that do not normalize at all like SoundCloud. Some places say SoundCloud normalizes others say they have no normalization. I don't know what to believe for sure. Then I read also that some of the streaming services have the option for turning normalization on or off which is also confusing. Then of course, when you're entering a song and a mix contest, you can use whatever level you want with no fear of normalization. But yeah, the part of just making louder for the sake of it, turning up the gain and compressing or brick wall limiting the crap out of it, will make it sound worse, I get that. In all honesty I have only ever posted my songs to SoundCloud so I guess I just don't have much experience with these other services. But just in listening to other streaming services like Amazon and YouTube, many songs seem way louder than -14 which is the spec they're giving, I don't get it. I need to measure the level of some of these songs that seem louder than the posted spec by the streaming service

[James Perrett]

Often, when you play a song on its own on a streaming service, no normalisation is applied so your song appears at its original level. If you play the song as part of a playlist then normalisation is applied. However, policies seem to be changing all the time so I just let the song tell me where it wants to be and just make it sound as good as possible.

[RichardT]

A lot of stuff still seems to me to be mastered hot. I think this seems to be an artistic choice now!

I agree with James that the best thing is to let the music and your own aesthetics decide what works.

Spotify does not apply any normalisation at all on some devices. It also offers premium subscribers the option to normalise to -11 LUFS if they want, or to -19 LUFS if they prefer. So it’s a complex situation.

[RichardT]

Just listened to a new David Guetta / Oliver Tree duet called 'Here We Go Again'- my first thought was how horrible it sounded.

The whole thing, on TIDAL at 24/44 or better, with quiet sections and intro etc, comes in at -8.5 LUFS

The loud section was -6.7 LUFS.

With true peak monitoring, it was constantly clipping at 0.1 to 0.2 dBFS

I don't think the loudness wars have gone away, sadly.

[The Elf]

The 'war' is over. But that doesn't mean there aren't a few die hards hiding in trenches out there. Maybe they will learn, maybe not.

[RichardT]

The 'war' is over. But that doesn't mean there aren't a few die hards hiding in trenches out there. Maybe they will learn, maybe not.

I'm not so sure - David Guetta is perhaps the leading artist in his genre (perhaps second to Calvin Harris, I'm not sure) ...

[The Elf]

The 'war' is over. But that doesn't mean there aren't a few die hards hiding in trenches out there. Maybe they will learn, maybe not.

I'm not so sure - David Guetta is perhaps the leading artist in his genre (perhaps second to Calvin Harris, I'm not sure) ...

I constantly get acts asking me to bend the meters. I can educate, but I can't refuse if they are paying the bill. You have to do what you have to do. The result is that their music will be turned down by the large streaming services - and so will Mr Guetta's.

Does this matter? That's up to the individual to decide.

[RichardT]

The 'war' is over. But that doesn't mean there aren't a few die hards hiding in trenches out there. Maybe they will learn, maybe not.

I'm not so sure - David Guetta is perhaps the leading artist in his genre (perhaps second to Calvin Harris, I'm not sure) ...

I constantly get acts asking me to bend the meters. I can educate, but I can't refuse if they are paying the bill. You have to do what you have to do. The result is that their music will be turned down by the large streaming services - and so will Mr Guetta's.

Does this matter? That's up to the individual to decide.

I Agree!

[Zukan]

Folks are still going in hot thanks to companies like Spotify allowing users to switch off normalisation within settings.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think this is an artist problem not a Spotify problem frankly.
Some numbers from Ian Shepherd in the link below but by far the bulk of people listen to streamed music with some kind of normalisation applied:
https://productionadvice.co.uk/95-percent-normalized/
This is not a consumer-driven issue, it's an artist/producer/label one.
I reckon.

[Aaron Straley]

I've taken in much online info that says all streaming music is normalized. My ears tell me differently in many cases. I just dont believe everything I stream comes out at -14 across all platforms.
Also hard for me to believe that most professionals are mastering pop and hip hop anywhere near -14. Probably more like -10
If they want to set a standard, why not make it real and the same across all platforms? This would put an end to the loudness wars

[RichardT]

I've taken in much online info that says all streaming music is normalized. My ears tell me differently in many cases. I just dont believe everything I stream comes out at -14 across all platforms.
Also hard for me to believe that most professionals are mastering pop and hip hop anywhere near -14. Probably more like -10
If they want to set a standard, why not make it real and the same across all platforms? This would put an end to the loudness wars

I agree - most pop is much hotter than -14. I listened to ‘Will of the People’ from Muse’s 2022 album a couple of days ago and the integrated LUFS was -6.5. I can’t tell you how awful it sounded. Their earlier albums are around -10.

Platforms are coming closer together in what they do, but they can’t dictate to producers how loud their music should be. They can only penalise them.

[Drew Stephenson]

There's probably a couple of things at play here.
Firstly, there can be a big difference if something has been normalised at album level or at track level.
Secondly, there are various ways to game an integrated loudness reading so that stuff appears louder.
Thirdly, yes, absolutely, a lot of producers/artists are still pumping stuff out at -10 or higher. Particularly for artists who are still selling a lot of CDs.
Finally, as Richard says, this really isn't something the platforms can fix - though Apple's 'mastered for iTunes' is a step towards it I think. (Though I'm not sure if that's still a thing? Does anyone know?)

[RichardT]

It’s now called Apple Digital Masters. I’m not sure what take-up is like.

[DC-Choppah]

Mixing contests are great since you get a chance to do something really creative. I like to be bold and change the song around. Put in lots of contrast into the sections and do something musical, even add some instrumentation.

I think of it more as a re-arrangement of the song.

I think many folks are too timid and just make small tweaks to the audio. In that case it is not worth it since nobody will probably listen and you wont get much feedback.

What is fun is that you can get major artists to give you artistic feedback on the song changes, and they often like the new version. It's like jamming with the stars. I think people really will listen when you turn their song into something different. The worst they can do is just ignore it. The best case is that you start a relationship with them and have fun.