Inexperienced Users - X32 or A&H Qu... or...?

[Mike Stranks]

Just starting some consultancy for a church that I know will have complex multi-use needs... definitely more than an analogue desk can easily provide without much knob-twiddling. I'm thinking of a Qu-16 or an X32 variant.

So can the assembled brains who've used the beasts over an extended period say which might be better for:

1) Setting scenes by person or function name for easy recall for a specific activity.

2) Locking-out certain features that the inexperienced could ill-advisedly twiddle with - eg some form of password protection perhaps?

And how much control is there on the scribble-strips on the X32 Compact? Is it full alpha?

... and while I'm here... any other suggestions for a desk that can be operated either as a set and forget or full control when required?

If B'ger did a version of the FLOW with more inputs/outputs, I'd be strongly recommending that. A brilliant fusion of the simple UI with more complex stuff only available via a tablet or phone...

[resistorman]

The simple truth is that there is no set and forget tech for the complex AV requirements of today's non-profit gathering places staffed by volunteers. I'd say that AI assist will be required and welcomed, and we should figure out how our experience can be integrated into a working and profitable model

[AlecSp]

The scribble strips on X32 are actually very good - better than many other desks many times the price. 12 character limit (some of this might get truncated depending on the text size. The scribble strip also displays the physical input for the channel. 8 colours, plus inverted versions of all 8. You can also put icons on, but this shrinks the text.

If a picture tells a thousand words, then a video must tell more: https://youtu.be/4VeQZ7FIT6o

X32 Shows/Scenes/Snippets - very flexible and functional. https://youtu.be/6fFuKRPiRQY

X32 doesn't have the concept of users - and doesn't allow the lockout of certain functions.

I've had little use on QU, admittely.

QU has no scribble strips, obviously.

QU Shows/Scenes - less comprehensive than X32
https://youtu.be/lGCU6x5BOOc

QU user guide (here) covers user roles on p50. There are just three preset user roles: Admin/Standard/Basic. I suspect that will be too primitive for what you want.

I completely agree with Resistorman - the idea of set and forget is folly with more capable desks in more demanding situations. Churches are the perfect example of that, with the expectation of managing FOH, stream, monitor, loop, and relay mixes

[Murray B]

I'm not sure if the one of the Mackie DL series would meet the requirements for the 'Desk' but the Master Fader App is very good for locking down user access to features.

You can download a copy of the software and try it in Demo Mode. Might be worth a look.

[Wonks]

Unfortunately neither seem to incorporate the very important DFA fader as standard.

[Murray B]

Unfortunately neither seem to incorporate the very important DFA fader as standard.

You could assign a number of VCA's to DFA in a custom view on Master Fader

[Mike Stranks]

Thanks for comments so far...

This is a fairly traditional church - definitely choir, not worship-band! - which because of its size, location and history does host more than the typical CoE service-set.

I shall not be doing any kit-speccing, ordering or installing on this one - definitely just consultancy. But I want to ensure that they don't get the wrong kit. I've encountered far too many churches who've been sold over-complicated kit where it was just about OK, because "Fred knows about these things". Then 'Fred' moves away and people resort to the dreaded "Let's try turning this knob..." approach. Then guess who got called-in to sort out the ensuing sound-soup?

My question emanates from my relative inexperience in using the two desks I mention, which I suspect could well be offered in quotes.

I'm aware of the dangers of 'one size fits all', but 'scenes' and possibly passwords may mitigate that. My next step is to meet with key people in the church to discuss perceived existing shortfalls and what they want from the new system. At that point I shall have a better idea of the direction of travel.

My last experience of a hands-on install in a smaller church resulting in the FLOW 8 being the perfect solution. The simplest of controls for when the vicar flys solo, but with good behind the scenes stuff for initial set-up and any subsequent tweaking by those who know what they're doing.

So, again, thanks for comments! keep 'em coming on the original question...

[Mike Monte]

This may be a good place for a good-old-analog-Mixwizard.

Before I went digital I mixed many gigs (including church services) on one; choir/organ/priest/cantor/lectur.
I used a Rane C6 which gave me 4 channels of compression (rarely needed) plus two DBX2231 (dual channel) EQ's.

The user manual:
https://www.allen-heath.com/media/W3UG_ ... 5331_5.pdf
has blank pics of the the control surface on pages 29/30.

I made copies of those pages and noted "what needs to be where" (with colored marker, etc.) when I left my 'wiz with "volunteers".
Eazy-peazy.

[Dave Rowles]

I use both X32, and A&H SQ quite a bit. The scene system on the SQ is slightly better in my opinion, but the scribble strips have less characters if I remember rightly. I find the SQ easier to navigate and has some better smart button options, but I use flying faders for sends exclusively, whereas the some of the X32 models has knobs to twist, which might be a benefit.

The SQ sounds better by far, but then it's a much more expensive model. I add it as an option as it's a more modern desk, and A&H seem to be pushing updates more than Behringer are for the X32.

[Sam Spoons]

The QU is more of an analogue paradigm so a little easier to master if moving from an analogue desk but the lack of scribble strips made it a no go for me. The X32 does need some commitment from the operators but offers a lot for the money. And they must have sold around half a million of them by now so they are very well proven.

As you already know Mike, larger analogue desks can easily catch out the inexperienced operator too so whoever takes on the tsak of running the system will need to put a little time into learning whatever desk they buy.

[shufflebeat]

Worth exploring:

https://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/qu-control/

[DGL.]

Dependant on what's required would an X32 and some sort of MIDI controller work, MIDI CC#'s work for level control and program change messages for scenes (plus there's a load of other things you can control).
Gives you a good way of giving restricted access without them even needing to touch the main console.

[sonics]

I considered X32, Qu, Soundcraft and Yamaha for a theatre install. The Qu won out. (The budget didn't quite stretch to the SQ.

Some of the shows require use by inexperienced operators. The scene presets work really well. The analog-style controls are great when needed. The iPad apps are good. The custom layer facility has proved very useful, and the desk sounds good. Pre-written scribble strips are not supplied

You need someone around who actually "knows stuff" if any reconfiguration is required!

[AlecSp]

The QU is more of an analogue paradigm so a little easier to master if moving from an analogue desk but the lack of scribble strips made it a no go for me. The X32 does need some commitment from the operators but offers a lot for the money. And they must have sold around half a million of them by now so they are very well proven.

As you already know Mike, larger analogue desks can easily catch out the inexperienced operator too so whoever takes on the tsak of running the system will need to put a little time into learning whatever desk they buy.

I'd say that scribble strips are non-negotiable in a digital desk these days - even more so when used by a collection of non-experts. Every bit of help you can get is important. So, friendly or not, that would always preclude QU for me.

I also wouldn't consider any desk that was iPad only for remote control. Out in the real world, especially in the UK, it's far more common to find Android devices. Thankfully, Mixing Station provides a solution for those desks whose manufacturer doesn't support android (QU - I'm looking at you...)

You say that the church, while traditional, ends up hosting more demanding events. It's not clear what those demands might be - but that may well direct what desk might suit best.

While I'm a SQ person these days, X32 remains a formidable desk, which is more than capable of very flexibil use, while being usable (albeit not necessarily configurable) by unskilled volunteers. Its ubiquity & price remain unparalleled.

You need someone around who actually "knows stuff" if any reconfiguration is required!

This - 100%

[Sam Spoons]

How about considering an X32 Rack and an X-Touch controller, I think (will look into it a little deeper tomorrow) that should allow you to assign the X-Touch's fader's and rotary's to specific functions and lock out the functions you want to hide by default but still allow full control when the appropriate scene is loaded or a tablet/laptop is used. Not sure if the same could be done with an XR16/XR18/X-Touch rig (I did look into an XR12/X-Touch Compact rig but the XTC lacks the necessary hardware connectability with the XR12... A Flow 12/16 would fill that corner nicely but is not available).

[Mike Stranks]

You need someone around who actually "knows stuff" if any reconfiguration is required!

That'll be me...

I'm only 2 miles up the road and I know the vicar very well... hence me being involved in the first place. It's basically a favour for a friend.

The Statement of Requirement (which I shall write) will set out what needs to be accommodated in terms of 'events' and will emphasise that for much of the time the system will need to be powered-up by those with no tech hinterland. It will not set out that an XYZ mixer should be supplied. We shall see what is offered by prospective suppliers...

Your answers have helped me to come to a view on the pros and cons on two of the desks that may well be offered... it'll be interesting to see if anything else is 'pitched'...

(BTW... I have too much experience of the bewildered twiddling knobs at random to even contemplate a multi-channel analogue desk being remotely acceptable. If they can't see it, they won't try and change it! )

[resistorman]

(BTW... I have too much experience of the bewildered twiddling knobs at random to even contemplate a multi-channel analogue desk being remotely acceptable. If they can't see it, they won't try and change it! )

You got that right! Even with gobs of tape tying them down and DO NOT TOUCH labels everywhere any visible control will be twiddled

[sonics]

You got that right! Even with gobs of tape tying them down and DO NOT TOUCH labels everywhere any visible control will be twiddled

One church I know has a locked cabinet...for the audio mixer!

[tomas]

One attractive feature of the Soundcraft UI series is the complete absence of any native app to install on computer, tablet or phone. Instead, the mixers have an HTML5 server that is accessed by a regular internet browser. This means that the hardware is useful on a very wide range of devices, and will remain so without the risk that the manufacturer will at some point stop supplying native app updates for future devices and operating systems.

[Sam Spoons]

Until the age becomes unreadable by current browsers I'm not sure how that can actually happen, HTML is not my area of expertise, but I sometimes find my browser unsupported by certain pages.

[Mike Stranks]

One attractive feature of the Soundcraft UI series is the complete absence of any native app to install on computer, tablet or phone. Instead, the mixers have an HTML5 server that is accessed by a regular internet browser. This means that the hardware is useful on a very wide range of devices, and will remain so without the risk that the manufacturer will at some point stop supplying native app updates for future devices and operating systems.

Hmmm... I did buy-in to the Soundcraft philosophy on this (which they inherited when they bought-out another company)... for about two days.

Personally speaking, I found it as user-friendly as a cornered rat. I'd hesitate to inflict it on the technically bewildered and challenged.

[AlecSp]

The Statement of Requirement (which I shall write) will set out what needs to be accommodated in terms of 'events' and will emphasise that for much of the time the system will need to be powered-up by those with no tech hinterland. It will not set out that an XYZ mixer should be supplied. We shall see what is offered by prospective suppliers...

Your answers have helped me to come to a view on the pros and cons on two of the desks that may well be offered... it'll be interesting to see if anything else is 'pitched'...

If you're going out to suppliers, just remember that they may propose some wholly inappropriate options. Wouldn't be surprised if they suggested SQ. I suspect SQ might be a great fit for this, but it also a reasonable leap up in budget. Its custom layers have the potential to make it quite appealing for your use case.

Hmmm... I did buy-in to the Soundcraft philosophy on this (which they inherited when they bought-out another company)... for about two days.

Personally speaking, I found it as user-friendly as a cornered rat. I'd hesitate to inflict it on the technically bewildered and challenged.

Yes, while I'm sure time would help, I found it a challenge, too.

[sonics]

One attractive feature of the Soundcraft UI series is the complete absence of any native app to install on computer, tablet or phone.

Personally speaking, I found it as user-friendly as a cornered rat. I'd hesitate to inflict it on the technically bewildered and challenged.

Agreed. I found it a very unattractive feature, not suitable for my needs at all.

The Qu series has three in-house apps, TCP/IP support, MIDI control and the Mixing Station app (originally written for the X32) now supports it too.

Do have a look at the apps (especially Qu-Control) before a decision is made.

[resistorman]

One function the Behringers have that I find very useful is Automix, invaluable for panel discussions and I've even used it on backup vocals to limit stage bleed. Not sure if other manufacturers have it?

[sonics]

One function the Behringers have that I find very useful is Automix, invaluable for panel discussions and I've even used it on backup vocals to limit stage bleed. Not sure if other manufacturers have it?

The Qu series has 16 channels of what A&H call AMM (Automatic Mic Mixing).