Beyer M201 for Guitar Amp? + Condenser for Acoustic Guitar recording

[EmbraceRandom]

Hey,

I'm looking at sorting myself out with my first home project studio, which I'll be using to record Electric/Acoustic guitar, Bass and Keyboard, in my bedroom at home and at university, and maybe in a Hall if I need to, or have the opportunity to.

In terms of microphones, I'm looking at getting the studio standard 57 and 58 for good measure, and was also thinking of getting a Beyer M201.
I've heard good things about the M201, and want to find a dynamic mic to use for Guitar amp recording instead of a 57. However, the positive reviews I have heard/read about M201's is related to hi hat and snare miking, so does anyone have any experience using M201's to mic Guitar amps, and would you recommend them to me? And/Or can you suggest another dynamic mic that I should look into?

Also, I'd like to get a condenser microphone to record Acoustic Guitar, in my bedroom (which I aim to sound proof as much as possible) or in a Hall, but I'm not sure what to get.
Can anyone recommend a condenser mic that would be suited to both Acoustic Guitar recording applications (Bedroom and Hall)?

Thanks

[fishburn]

Listing your budget will probably help you get more results for the condenser?

And I have no personal experiances with the M201 but as said HERE:

Fairview have had the Beyer for years and though I've tried it in most things, it gets used all the time on either the snare or hats. Its a good alternative to the Shure SM57 and you can try it on anything that you might use an SM57 on such as a guitar cab. Its size makes it great for getting into a busy kit and the tight pattern is good for minimizing bleed from the hats and generally it's a good all round mic for the price.

More focus on hi-hat and snare, but could be good on guitar as implied above.

[matt keen]

One of the main reasons that we used to use 201's for snare or hi hat duties (apart from being a very good dynamic mic) is that they have very good rear rejection of sound - and you can use this characteristic to help isolation between the hi hat and snare.

Have even used them for vocals (for the same reasons you might use a 57 or 58) but remember that they are rather susceptible to plosives.

Occasionally used them on electric guitars.

Jack is the resident expert with micing electrics - perhaps he will pop by - read his article in current SOS if you haven't yet

Anyway - 201 is a good mic but whether it is sufficiently different to the 57 is another matter

[Doublehelix]

I use the m201 all the time on electric guitars!!! It is a great mic, although it does sound different to my ears from an SM57. It has more of a "wooden" sound to me, darker maybe?

We are working a project at the moment with 5 mics on a Marshall 4X12 cabinet where were have one mic on each speaker, and one out in the room:

1) SM57
2) Sennheiser e906 (which I also love)
3) Sennheiser MD421
4) Beyer m201
5) U87 (room mic)

I then mix and match and choose which track sounds best for the song and/or part. Quite often, the m201 ends up in the track. It is a great microphone.

For acoustic guitars. again, you haven't mentioned your budget, which of course tells us next-to-nothing about what to recommend, but from some of the hints in your message (going to University, recording in a hall or your bedroom at home), I am going to assume that your budget is going to be relatively small.

If that is the case, you could do a lot worse than a pair of Rode NT55s, which give you both the omni capsules and the cardioid capsules. I quite like them on acoustics to be honest.

If you have a bit more dosh, then you can step up to the Neumann KM184s, or one of the many ribbon options. It depends on the sound you are looking for as well. Bright vs. full and woolly? In a busy mix, or as a stand-along guitar along with a vocal? I use different mics and work to get different sounds depending on how it is going to be used.

[EmbraceRandom]

RE: Budget for condenser is about £150, I've been recommended getting two AKG Perception 150 pencil mics and recording the Acoustic using the XY method.
I could pick two of those up brand new for under £100, but I'm not sure of their quality. I have read good things about them, having a small diaphragm is great for recording Acoustic Guitar, to pick up minor details at all frequenceies, and their ability to handle high SPL's is always good (not that this would be a problem, considering I'm using it for Acoustic Guitar), but the low price tag makes me a bit wary.
What do you think to the AKG Perception 150?

About the M201, I've read a bit about the uses and main applications, obviously this doesn't mean it can't be used for other things, but I understand its isolation makes it brilliant for rejecting hat leakage when recording the snare. I've used it on a snare before for this reason, just never on a guitar cab.
Noob question though, how does it have good rear rejection even though its hypercardioid? They pick up a small amount from the rear don't they, as opposed to the 57 which is cardioid.

And do you mean the 'Bigger, badder electric guitar' article? I'll give it a read.
(By the way, I thought it was the norm to phase align almost everything when editing? It's mad how much the sound changes by just moving two identical sounds 10 samples apart)

[Doublehelix]

About the M201, I've read a bit about the uses and main applications, obviously this doesn't mean it can't be used for other things, but I understand its isolation makes it brilliant for rejecting hat leakage when recording the snare. I've used it on a snare before for this reason, just never on a guitar cab.
Noob question though, how does it have good rear rejection even though its hypercardioid? They pick up a small amount from the rear don't they, as opposed to the 57 which is cardioid.

You are correct in that there is a small lobe at the back of a hyper-cardioid mic which means that they *do* indeed pick up sounds from *directly* behind, but to the rear side corners (45 degree-ish) there are DEEP nulls which you can use to your advantage by angling things properly. The pattern is much tighter than a standard cardioid on the front lobe as well.

Knowledge of the pickup pattern of your mics is very helpful when positioning them in a multi-instrument environment. It sounds like you are pretty sharp and know what you are doing, but just need a bit of experience with the implementation part. You are definitely on the right track, and are actually using your brain rather than just blindly following a guideline! Good on ya man!

[EmbraceRandom]

Hey Doublehelix, I sent out my last post before I read yours, so thanks for the reply, it was helpful!

About the M201, it all sounds good, I'll try and get hold of a M201 to try miking my guitar amp before I get myself one, but I'd be getting a 57 as well so even if I didn't like the output tone of the M201, it sounds like a very versatile mic to have anyway. By the sounds of it though, I'm sure it'll work well as a guitar amp mic

...you could do a lot worse than a pair of Rode NT55s, which give you both the omni capsules and the cardioid capsules. I quite like them on acoustics to be honest.

They look great, but it'd cost me over £300 for two of them to do a XY Guitar recording! And yes, I am a student so my budget is around £150 but I suppose that's when I was looking at just getting one condenser to place in front of the guitar, alternating between bridge,sound hole and neck recording positions.
Even so, what do you think of the AKG Perception 150? I could get 2 for under £100, which like I said, makes me wary and skeptical of their quality, but after reading their spec and a few reviews they don't seem to be that bad (But I suppose it's all personal taste, but either way I'd like your opinion).

It depends on the sound you are looking for as well. Bright vs. full and woolly? In a busy mix, or as a stand-along guitar along with a vocal? I use different mics and work to get different sounds depending on how it is going to be used.

The Acoustic Guitar would likely change from being a solo instrument, to being in a isntrumentally thin and dynamically quiet (relative to what most of my compositions transform into) section, to being behind a number of instruments in a thick mix. So everything basically.
I don't want it to be seen as a support instrument, I like to write and record music as if each instrument is solo.

Knowledge of the pickup pattern of your mics is very helpful when positioning them in a multi-instrument environment. It sounds like you are pretty sharp and know what you are doing, but just need a bit of experience with the implementation part. You are definitely on the right track, and are actually using your brain rather than just blindly following a guideline! Good on ya man!

Cheers mate thanks for the explanation on the rear rejection, I've always liked to check mic polar patterns before use for that reason, like you said, to know where the nulls/cusps are.

[Doublehelix]

About the M201, it all sounds good, I'll try and get hold of a M201 to try miking my guitar amp before I get myself one, but I'd be getting a 57 as well so even if I didn't like the output tone of the M201, it sounds like a very versatile mic to have anyway. By the sounds of it though, I'm sure it'll work well as a guitar amp mic

Great choice... but see below...

They look great, but it'd cost me over £300 for two of them to do a XY Guitar recording!

Maybe if you only got the SM57 and not the m201, you could afford a pair of NT55s? I also hear good things about the SE1's, but have never tried them myself so I am only repeating what I have heard elsewhere.

The SM57 is really a great all-arounder, and you can do a lot with that mic. In my mind, as a beginner, you would probably be OK with just the SM57, especially if you could take some of that money and use it on a pair of acoustic guitar mics...

Just a thought...

Even so, what do you think of the AKG Perception 150? I could get 2 for under £100, which like I said, makes me wary and skeptical of their quality, but after reading their spec and a few reviews they don't seem to be that bad (But I suppose it's all personal taste, but either way I'd like your opinion).

Sorry that I can't help you here, I am not familiar with them at all. I have seen them advertised, and that is about the extent of my experience with them! Don't forget to check out the SE1's however!!!

The Acoustic Guitar would likely change from being a solo instrument, to being in a isntrumentally thin and dynamically quiet (relative to what most of my compositions transform into) section, to being behind a number of instruments in a thick mix. So everything basically.
I don't want it to be seen as a support instrument, I like to write and record music as if each instrument is solo.

A lot of those changes can be accomplished through EQ as well. For example, if I am looking for a sound that will cut through a busy mix, I tend to want to emphasize the high end and pick strumming sound. I can then use a HPF to cut out a lot of the low end of the guitar, and then use a high-shelf to boost the top end (and of course, there might be other adjustments in the middle depending on the guitar, mic, etc.). The guitar might sound like garbage in isolation, but can sound wonderful when combined with the other elements.

If I am doing a solo guitar/singer songwriter type of style, then I really need to get the body of the guitar, and that requires much more experimentation. I will try several different miking techniques and placements to get the right sound. It might be x/y as you mention, but maybe not. Spaced pairs might be just the ticket, or even sticking a large diaphragm condenser out there in addition to the SDC pair.

I find the Rodes to be a bit darker and are really good at getting the body of the guitar, whereas something like the KM184s are better at picking up the string and strumming sound.

Another trick is to put one mic up over the guitarist's strumming shoulder, angled down towards the body, and then another one up on the neck a bit further.

I have also got some great acoustic sounds before using M/S techniques, but not very often.

I guess the point is that you shouldn't necessarily get hung up on the x/y technique.

Our friend Hugh Robjohns tends not to like stereo recording of acoustic guitars. He claims that they are a "mono instrument", so why record them in stereo? A fair point, I guess.

Horses for courses for sure.

Cheers mate thanks for the explanation on the rear rejection, I've always liked to check mic polar patterns before use for that reason, like you said, to know where the nulls/cusps are.

EXCELLENT! Recording is really about using the tools you have at your disposal in creative ways, and knowledge of those tools is the key to coming up with new ways to use them! You are on your way in the right direction, that is for sure. Best of luck!

[EmbraceRandom]

Maybe if you only got the SM57 and not the m201, you could afford a pair of NT55s? I also hear good things about the SE1's, but have never tried them myself so I am only repeating what I have heard elsewhere.

The SM57 is really a great all-arounder, and you can do a lot with that mic. In my mind, as a beginner, you would probably be OK with just the SM57, especially if you could take some of that money and use it on a pair of acoustic guitar mics

The SE1a's? Yeah I've heard some pretty good things about them too, never used them though. I've had a quick look, could get one for around £60, so that's good. There's an article in SOS from a few years ago, It's here. I'm gonna give that a read when I get back in.
I know 57's are great all rounder and that's why they've been used in live and studio music since the late 60's, and I will buy one for their workhorse qualities, but personally I want to find something new that can do everything the 57 can do, and more.
Like I said, I'll buy a 57, so I've got one because they're just so handy to have, but I'd rather have another dynamic that I use more often than the 57. And I think the M201 is the way to go, and it's versatility makes it a great mic to have. Unless you can suggest another great reliable dynamic? Because I'm definitely open to other suggestions. Apologies if I'm breaking the status quo, but I personally believe that any industry based in technology is fast moving, and using the same microphone for nearly 40 years is pretty slow!

A lot of those changes can be accomplished through EQ as well. For example, if I am looking for a sound that will cut through a busy mix, I tend to want to emphasize the high end and pick strumming sound. I can then use a HPF to cut out a lot of the low end of the guitar, and then use a high-shelf to boost the top end (and of course, there might be other adjustments in the middle depending on the guitar, mic, etc.). The guitar might sound like garbage in isolation, but can sound wonderful when combined with the other elements.

Yeah, I suppose that's probably the right way to think on it, seeing as the final listener isn't going to listen to each instrument individually. But then that's what the whole mixing stage is about isn't it, finding what each instrument adds to mix, and if the overall mix is too freq. heavy in one area etc., and working on the EQ of each instrument individually to get an even sound.

If I am doing a solo guitar/singer songwriter type of style, then I really need to get the body of the guitar, and that requires much more experimentation. I will try several different miking techniques and placements to get the right sound. It might be x/y as you mention, but maybe not. Spaced pairs might be just the ticket, or even sticking a large diaphragm condenser out there in addition to the SDC pair.
Another trick is to put one mic up over the guitarist's strumming shoulder, angled down towards the body, and then another one up on the neck a bit further.
I have also got some great acoustic sounds before using M/S techniques, but not very often.
I guess the point is that you shouldn't necessarily get hung up on the x/y technique.

Yeah that's a fair point, I wouldn't be sticking to one technique, I understand it's all about experimentation and using a variety of methods, sometimes at the same time, to find the right sound, no matter how long it takes

Our friend Hugh Robjohns tends not to like stereo recording of acoustic guitars. He claims that they are a "mono instrument", so why record them in stereo? A fair point, I guess.

That's a very good point to be honest!

[Doublehelix]

A couple of quick points...

The SM57 has been used for so many years for a reason, it is great all-arounder. Just because it has been around for a long time does not make old fashioned!

Don't get me wrong, I love my m201, and use it all the time.

I also use my Sennheiser MD421 and MD441s all the time, but they are a bit more money. But each has its uses. So do you also need to have one of each of those? How about a Shure SM7 or an EV RE20? It never ends!!!

To my ears, they each have a unique sound, but I think you can get *most* of what you need with the SM57, that is all I was saying. I guess if you can afford both, go for it!!! If I personally had to choose between adding a m201 to your SM57, or getting a nice pair of SDCs, I would go with the SDCs every time.

When you are first starting out, you need different types of mics, not just different flavors of the same type. At least that is my opinion. Then latter on, you can add to your dynamic collection, and even upgrade your SDCs if you want to.

Honestly, I'd have to say that my most-used dynamic mic is the SM57 or the MD421.

Here is a picture from today's guitar session. As you can see, I have several dynhamic mics setup (along with a U87 as a room mic that is out of the picture).

(Click on the image for a larger version)

From L - R:

Marshall Cabinet:
Sennheiser e906
Beyer m201 (top, not plugged in yet)
Sennheiser MD421 (bottom, not plugged in yet)

Fender Twin:
SM57
Senneheiser MD441



For this session, we were switching back and forth between the different amps during the day, and I just kept all 5 mics out for use as needed. I eventually actually pulled out *another* SM57 so I didn't have to keep swapping it back and forth and lose my phase relationship! In other words, I was using the SM57 for both the distorted sound of the Marshall, and the cleaner, twangier sound of the Twin. It sounded great on both of them.

Yeah, sure it would be nice to have one (or two!) of every mic, but when you are starting out, you need to make some tough choices.

Like I said earlier, I am not trying to talk you out of the m201, it is a great mic, but honestly, it is not so special that you couldn't live without it, especially with a 57 in the house.

I personally would get the SM57 and a pair of SDCs (Rodes, sE's or the AKGs), and *then* if you can afford it, buy another dynamic like the m201.

What is your plan for a vocal mic?

[EmbraceRandom]

Ok, that's a very good point. I'll look into getting the M201 in the future then, but it makes sense, as you've said, to build my mic arsenal with microphones that do different things first, instead of different types of the same microphone. And I understand that there is little difference between the 57 and the M201 anyway, but I'll still definitely be getting one in the future, possibly near future. Once I've got my other mics anyway.

About vocals, I get to use a Neumann U87 at uni, might be a tiny bit out of my budget to get my own though! Also used a Rode NT2000 but I prefer using 2 as room mics for instrument/ensemble recording.
So I'm looking into the SE Electronics SE1000A for vocals, possibly.
Or the Rode NT1. Trying to keep the price down but quality up, but I guess that's what anyone would be doing in any situation!

[bakup]

i'v not long started in recording but i seem to be getting some good results with a secondhand Rode NT2 and a PG 57, i use nt2 on vocals and acoustic and the pg57 on both guitar and bass cabs i have tried m201 on guitar cab but as was said earlir it sounds a bit mmmmmmmmmmm, nice on drums, :Dfun innit :Dt4tea

[Frank Eleveld]

I think the M201 does a good job on cabs, but I still prefer to stick a SM57 in front of one. Somehow the sound just 'fits' cabs better; the M201 is more open and airy sounding and in my opinion thus better suited for percussion, drums, speech, ...

Cheers,
Frank

[archdake mkII]

I think the M201 does a good job on cabs, but I still prefer to stick a SM57 in front of one. Somehow the sound just 'fits' cabs better; the M201 is more open and airy sounding and in my opinion thus better suited for percussion, drums, speech, ...

Cheers,
Frank

Fair point - especially if your guitars are overdriven-distorted. You get nasty stuff above 6K with many amps. I've had a couple of interesting sounds out of an amp using a dictaphone- go figure...

[EmbraceRandom]

Hey guys, thank for the replies, I haven't been on here in a while, had a lot on!

Right basically, I'm in the same position, and a bit confused.

I'm definitely buying two 57's and one 58.

For an Acoustic Guitar mic, the suggested options at the moment are:
2 x SE Electronics SE1a = £120 roughly.
OR
2 x AKG Perception 150's = £100 roughly.

However, as Doublehelix pointed out through reference to Robjohns, guitar is a mono instrument so it doesn't need to be recorded in stereo.

So still need a Condenser for recording Acoustic.

And for recording vocals I was thinking SE1000a or Rode NT1. Good/bad/other recommendations?

I want to get all this sorted as soon as possible, need to order my equipment soon!

[Jack Ruston]

Re the acoustics: I've got no experience of the mics you mention so I wont comment.

Re the cabinet: I think you should see how you go with the 57. It's a very good mic for electric guitar for a number of reasons. As it is for snare. And it gets used an awful lot for those applications right at the top of the industry. So I'd give it a whirl, see what you like about it and what you dont like. From that point of experience you can then borrow, rent or demo a 201 and see what joy (or not) that brings to the equation. No point rushing in to something you're not quite sure about.

Jack

[EmbraceRandom]

Yeah I've decided against getting the M201 for now, like I said in the previous post I'm going to get 2 57's and a 58, but I need an Acoustic Guitar mic and a Vocal mic. Any suggestions?

[EmbraceRandom]

I've just read this month's SOS article on the Perception range, that I was thinking of getting.

They summarise by saying that there's a lot of other mics just as good and in the same price range, which I already knew, but it makes my search a bit easier.

I like the idea of heading down the SE route, like I said, I could get the SE1000a for vocals, or go with Rode and get the NT1.

But I'm still stuck for an Acoustic Guitar microphone.

[JimmyCTA]

Depending on your budget:

Guitar amp - Sennhesier E606. Its designed for guitar amps and i love it. I usually use this with a Sm57.

Acoustic guitar - Rode NT2000, It sounds incredible on acoustic guitars in pretty much every way in my opinion

[Mixedup]

For acoustic guitar, just go for any small diaphragm condenser. The SE, Rode and Oktava offerings are pretty good for the price. If you've got a decent space to record in, get an omni and you'll get more natural results. Personally, I love the AKG C451B on acoustic, but not everyone does...

On the M201, I've been left with the impression that it gives a fast transient response for a dynamic mike which, along with the tight pattern, makes it 'snappier' on percussion than a 57 - hence its use on snare (fast response and rejection of hi-hat). It should do a passable job of an acoustic guitar too, but you'll get better results from an SDC. For drums, I'd still go with the already-dispensed wisdom of getting a 57 first and only adding a 201 later if you like it.

[EmbraceRandom]

Depending on your budget:

Guitar amp - Sennhesier E606. Its designed for guitar amps and i love it. I usually use this with a Sm57.

Acoustic guitar - Rode NT2000, It sounds incredible on acoustic guitars in pretty much every way in my opinion

I don't need a microphone for the guitar cab yet, I'm just going to use a 57 for that application. I'm looking for an Acoustic Guitar mic (as you've mentioned) but also a vocal mic.
BUDGET: £150 for the Acoustic Guitar application (whether this be one microphone or 2 pencil mics, for example), £200 for the vocal mic .
I could be willing to extend the budget a little more, depending on whether the mic was overkill or not.

Yeah I've used the NT2000's, nice microphones. Can you think of anything similar for a little less? They're up at about £250 I think, and I don't think I'd really use it for vocals as well so it might be a little too expensive. Unless you'd recommend them being used for vocals?

For acoustic guitar, just go for any small diaphragm condenser. The SE, Rode and Oktava offerings are pretty good for the price. If you've got a decent space to record in, get an omni and you'll get more natural results. Personally, I love the AKG C451B on acoustic, but not everyone does...

Nah I haven't got a brilliant space to record in, I'm just recording (primarily) in my bedroom.
What do you like about the AKG that others don't, just out of curiousity?

[JimmyCTA]

Depending on your budget:

Guitar amp - Sennhesier E606. Its designed for guitar amps and i love it. I usually use this with a Sm57.

Acoustic guitar - Rode NT2000, It sounds incredible on acoustic guitars in pretty much every way in my opinion

I don't need a microphone for the guitar cab yet, I'm just going to use a 57 for that application. I'm looking for an Acoustic Guitar mic (as you've mentioned) but also a vocal mic.
BUDGET: £150 for the Acoustic Guitar application (whether this be one microphone or 2 pencil mics, for example), £200 for the vocal mic .
I could be willing to extend the budget a little more, depending on whether the mic was overkill or not.

Yeah I've used the NT2000's, nice microphones. Can you think of anything similar for a little less? They're up at about £250 I think, and I don't think I'd really use it for vocals as well so it might be a little too expensive. Unless you'd recommend them being used for vocals?

To me it makes more sense to buy just one mike that can be used for both vocals and acoustic guitar... allowing you to spend more of your budget on a better microphone rather than 2 average ones. Personally i think a Rode Nt2000 suits vocals and guitars well, and has 3 adjustable twist controls on it to help accomodate both applications. they retail at around £285.00 and i think itd be a great investment. If youre looking for something more affordable, i.e a mike for acoustic gtr and one for vocals, you may want to look into AKG's perception range, as theyre quite affordable and a reasonable quality. I still stick with my theory that it is better to buy one higher quality mike that suits both applications though to be honest. The fact that your budget totals at £350 allows a lot more room for an even better microphone really, making it a much more sensible decision to do this in my opinion.

[forumuser775780]

I like using the SE large diaphragm for vocals but Ive also found an AKG C1000 sounds nice on an acoustic, I'm repping it student style too!

[EmbraceRandom]

To me it makes more sense to buy just one mike that can be used for both vocals and acoustic guitar... allowing you to spend more of your budget on a better microphone rather than 2 average ones. Personally i think a Rode Nt2000 suits vocals and guitars well, and has 3 adjustable twist controls on it to help accomodate both applications. they retail at around £285.00 and i think itd be a great investment. If youre looking for something more affordable, i.e a mike for acoustic gtr and one for vocals, you may want to look into AKG's perception range, as theyre quite affordable and a reasonable quality. I still stick with my theory that it is better to buy one higher quality mike that suits both applications though to be honest. The fact that your budget totals at £350 allows a lot more room for an even better microphone really, making it a much more sensible decision to do this in my opinion.

Hey, thanks for the reply.
Yeah that sounds good, to be honest I'd much rather get a better quality microphone for both applications.

However, one thing; I like the idea of using a Small Diaphragm Condenser to mic the Acoustic Guitar for their detailed response, but the NT2000 is Large Diaphragm. I'm not doubting that it's an excellent mic, I know it sounds good in most applications, having already used NT2000's as Room Mics, as a Vocal mic, etc. But how would it compare, in your opinion(s) to, say, a Stereo pair of SE Electronics SE1a SDC's?

[Kij]

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http://www.thelisteningsessions.com/session5.htm

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http://www.audiotalkback.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=126688