Recording nylon string guitar

[zackback]

Hi,

I'm trying to record a nylon stringed classical guitar (while playing a non-classical style, strumming chords, no pick), and would like some advice. I am recording using an inexpensive Lauten-brand LDC mic, in a small room with a heavy duvet behind the player to reduce reflections. The recordings sound very...muddy/boomy/indistinct. The mic has a high pass filter, which knocks of a little bottom end (but there's not much in those frequencies to begin with). The boominess remains. If I use an EQ plugin I see two large peaks at 100 and 200Hz, and if I notch those down a bit, it does seem to help. But still...any advice on how to get a clearer sound?

Thank you!

[resistorman]

I know this may seem a flippant question, but are you sure the mic is pointed in the right direction? I admit that I've rotated the mic in the wrong direction in a moment of distraction and it took me too long to figure it out. Picture me changing cables and preamps etc. Anyhow start from basics.

[OneWorld]

Hi,

I'm trying to record a nylon stringed classical guitar (while playing a non-classical style, strumming chords, no pick), and would like some advice. I am recording using an inexpensive Lauten-brand LDC mic, in a small room with a heavy duvet behind the player to reduce reflections. The recordings sound very...muddy/boomy/indistinct. The mic has a high pass filter, which knocks of a little bottom end (but there's not much in those frequencies to begin with). The boominess remains. If I use an EQ plugin I see two large peaks at 100 and 200Hz, and if I notch those down a bit, it does seem to help. But still...any advice on how to get a clearer sound?

Thank you!

There's a young lady on You Tube, Stephanie Jones, and she gets as good a sound as one could expect and she seems to use one of those hand held stereo recorders. She has a presence on the internet, she might even be contactable by email?

Recording the nylon strung guitar is something that's escaped me and moved onto steel strung. Anyway, here's a link.....

Stephanie Jones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UwA8zvDcho

[Essex Boi]

I’d try to get a more accurate recording at source, rather than reaching for EQ. I find that’s often trial and error with instruments and players I’ve not recorded before.

Boomy suggests you’re maybe picking up more of the body of the instrument. Have you tried shifting mic position relative to the sound hole? Indistinct suggests the mic is simply too far from the source. If you’ve not already tried, I’d suggest experiment with distance from the mic too.

More tricky to fix is if the overall sound is down to playing style or the instrument itself. Try a different guitar (borrow one if you don’t have one) and also experiment with different playing styles - maybe try a thin pick for strumming, play harder or softer, etc.

[Wonks]

What size and shape is the room? Whereabouts in the room is the player sitting? Avoid sitting dead centre or 1/4 of the way across.

What does the guitar sound like when you stand in front of it? If it sounds good then it is probably just the mic position.

A hard floor can help add some brightness back. If it’s carpeted, then putting down a square of material with a hard surface, such as plywood or hardboard, can help. Not all reflections are bad.

If you are doing this all by yourself, then try and get someone to help you. Either by playing whilst you move the mic and listening through headphones or vice-versa.

[Mike Stranks]

This little video from SoS may be helpful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VzZU_8 ... ndmagazine

[Tim Gillett]

Any chance of uploading an audio example both before and after your EQ?

[OneWorld]

This little video from SoS may be helpful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VzZU_8 ... ndmagazine

But the OP is asking asking recording a nylon string guitar?

[Kwackman]

in a small room with a heavy duvet behind the player to reduce reflections.

There's a young lady on You Tube, Stephanie Jones, and she gets as good a sound as one could expect and she seems to use one of those hand held stereo recorders.

Unlike the OP, her (very nice) recording is in a large room with hard surfaces.

[Wonks]

This little video from SoS may be helpful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VzZU_8 ... ndmagazine

But the OP is asking asking recording a nylon string guitar?

It makes no difference at all to recording whether nylon or steel. That will affect the basic guitar tonality but the sound is produced in the same way and the recording process is the same.

[OneWorld]

in a small room with a heavy duvet behind the player to reduce reflections.

There's a young lady on You Tube, Stephanie Jones, and she gets as good a sound as one could expect and she seems to use one of those hand held stereo recorders.

Unlike the OP, her (very nice) recording is in a large room with hard surfaces.

I keep moving back to that, no matter what, the nylon guitar seems to favour the room with hard surfaces. In fact even I managed to get good results once, in exactly those circumstances, and that seems to be the common factor, the sound of the room

[OneWorld]

This little video from SoS may be helpful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VzZU_8 ... ndmagazine

But the OP is asking asking recording a nylon string guitar?

It makes no difference at all to recording whether nylon or steel. That will affect the basic guitar tonality but the sound is produced in the same way and the recording process is the same.

The process might be the same but the result can be different.

Could you explain the difference between tonality and sound? Can you have a good tone from a bad sound and vice verse? Surely the tone is a constituent component of sound and if the tone is not a true representation, then the sound is affected too?

All I know is that the natural reverb etc of a ‘hard’ room seems to favour the nylon strung guitar

[Wonks]

Could you explain the difference between tonality and sound?

In this instance we are talking about a steel string guitar and a nylon string guitar. Both have strings, a neck and a hollow wooden body. Sound is produced by the strings vibrating and the vibrations being transferred to the top which in turn vibrates. The body as a whole amplifies the sound and whilst some sound is produced by the back and sides, the majority comes from the top, with the bass frequencies mainly emanating from the soundhole.

The tonality is what the guitars sound like (different meanings of the same word there). The nylon strings have lower tension for the same pitch as steel strings, and a different mass per unit length. The lower tension allows for a lighter bracing system for the top compared to a steel string guitar.

The nylon and steel strings produce different rations of each of the harmonics produced,and this is also affected by the different bracing types. So whilst the sound (overall noise made by the guitar) is produced in the same basic way, and is emitted from the same areas in both cases, various factors affect the tone of that sound, which normally makes it quite easy to tell a nylon string and steel string guitar apart.

[OneWorld]

Could you explain the difference between tonality and sound?

In this instance we are talking about a steel string guitar and a nylon string guitar. Both have strings, a neck and a hollow wooden body. Sound is produced by the strings vibrating and the vibrations being transferred to the top which in turn vibrates. The body as a whole amplifies the sound and whilst some sound is produced by the back and sides, the majority comes from the top, with the bass frequencies mainly emanating from the soundhole.

The tonality is what the guitars sound like (different meanings of the same word there). The nylon strings have lower tension for the same pitch as steel strings, and a different mass per unit length. The lower tension allows for a lighter bracing system for the top compared to a steel string guitar.

The nylon and steel strings produce different rations of each of the harmonics produced,and this is also affected by the different bracing types. So whilst the sound (overall noise made by the guitar) is produced in the same basic way, and is emitted from the same areas in both cases, various factors affect the tone of that sound, which normally makes it quite easy to tell a nylon string and steel string guitar apart.

So guitars have strings and a body, how long did it take you to work that out LOL

Thanks for your extemporized fugue but sorry it don't butter my parsnips.

[Wonks]

Maybe try a cooking forum then?

[Tomás Mulcahy]

This little video from SoS may be helpful...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VzZU_8 ... ndmagazine

But the OP is asking asking recording a nylon string guitar?

The procedure is the same for getting the mic position, and the sound radiates in the same way regardless of the string material.

[Philbo King]

The classic starting point for recording acoustic guitar: position the mic about 2 or 3 feet away, at the 12th fret, pointing slightly toward the sound hole.

Experiment with mic position while listening on headphones. Even an inch or two can change the sound drastically.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

The classic starting point for recording acoustic guitar: position the mic about 2 or 3 feet away, at the 12th fret, pointing slightly toward the sound hole.

Experiment with mic position while listening on headphones. Even an inch or two can change the sound drastically.

I don't know why you would start there. The video demonstrates the procedure very well.

[Drew Stephenson]

Wonks' question about room size seems like it might be pertinent given those two peaks at 100 and 200Hz.
Personally I quite like a ribbon on a classical guitar if it's being picked and the room isn't troublesome. I'd need to experiment for a strummed one though.

[Drew Stephenson]

This video (at this point for about 30 secs) shows a simple range of sounds depending on where you're pointing the mic: https://youtu.be/BEAMMLijuQw?t=518

[ef37a]

My son has studied the S Jones Bach YTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EM6t3iHK1Y and makes a decent fist of that.

He too has complained of "boom" and I think it is mostly the result of his room? Not that big and the link above is a theatre and Steph' is also playing a rather small bodied guitar and gets an almost 'wiry' tone to me on my Tannoy 5As. The mics in that clip are also SDCs (anyone recognise them? Bet they are DPAs or something else dearer than my car!) The mic setup seems odd to me?
They are parallel so not CO-I but do in fact pickup a stereo signal, but not a lot! SDC mics are probably the most common type used on acoustic guitars?

Son has Mackie EM-91C but also uses a pair of Behringer C2s (we had to buy 4 to get 3 quiet ones) and they seem pretty good. When he cannot be arsed to get rigged up he uses a Citronics LDC (sort of) USB mic. Better than you might think...

Good point about a hard floor under the player.

Dave.

[Wonks]

The mics in that clip look more like short shotguns to me than SDCs, but I'm probably wrong.

There are also two lots of mics used in shot, one pair silver, one pair black. So there is also the possibility that neither were used for the actual recording!

[Wonks]

The mics in that clip look more like short shotguns to me than SDCs, but I'm probably wrong.

There are also two lots of mics used in shot, one pair silver, one pair black. So there is also the possibility that neither were used for the actual recording!

Forget all that. I was viewing on too small a screen and the mic clips were confusing me.

Yes SDCs, and the same pair.

[ef37a]

The mics in that clip look more like short shotguns to me than SDCs, but I'm probably wrong.

There are also two lots of mics used in shot, one pair silver, one pair black. So there is also the possibility that neither were used for the actual recording!

Forget all that. I was viewing on too small a screen and the mic clips were confusing me.

Yes SDCs, and the same pair.

That setup seems common for solo classical guitar Wonks. If you look for some Julian Bream they often use a similar rig. I get a bit hissed off with some of these YTs where they never give you a long shot of the mics nor go close enough to identify them! Fussy sod ain't I?! "I want it all........"

Dave.