Ampster or small tube amp or DSP or ……..

[Wonks]

It will be taken after most/all of the preamp, so any drive and EQ will be present in the DI signal. It’s certainly an option but a direct DI will give more choice if you don’t use the miked signal.

[IAA]

I have a Blackstar ID10 and a positive grid spark. I think neither have a loop?

In an ideal world I’d like to mic up the amp and have a clean DI direct to the instrument input on the interface for fun and games ITB. The mic signal will be crunchy and a bit of room.

So that’s why I thought audio splitter.

Cheers chaps.

Ian

[ef37a]

I have a Blackstar ID10 and a positive grid spark. I think neither have a loop?

In an ideal world I’d like to mic up the amp and have a clean DI direct to the instrument input on the interface for fun and games ITB. The mic signal will be crunchy and a bit of room.

So that’s why I thought audio splitter.

Cheers chaps.

Ian

https://blackstaramps.com/wp-content/up ... ndbook.pdf

The headphone output is speaker emulating though it will of course kill the internal speakers* I would also say that recording the speaker output of THAT particular type of amplifier might not be the best way to go.

Then the amp is of course a USB interface as well so that is another recording option.

*I would bet the speaker kill is not done 'mechanically' and you might be able to defeat it in software? Blackstar will I am sure be pleased to advise.

Dave.

[The Elf]

In an ideal world I’d like to mic up the amp and have a clean DI direct to the instrument input on the interface for fun and games ITB.

But that's why you need a DI. Not sure why you chose a splitter? It may work perfectly well, I suppose...

The idea is that you plug your guitar into the DI. You connect the 'thru' of the DI into your amp. You connect the balanced XLR output of the DI into a mic input on your interface.

Now you record the mic in front of the speaker at the same time as you record the 'clean' signal from the DI box. With that 'clean' signal you can now send it back to your amp (via a re-amper box), use a plug-in amp simulator, or anything else you like.

[IAA]

The idea is that you plug your guitar into the DI. You connect the 'thru' of the DI into your amp. You connect the balanced XLR output of the DI into a mic input on your interface.

Yep got that now I thought the splitter woukd offer two outputs of the source - one to the amp the other the interface instrument input.

I would also say that recording the speaker output of THAT particular type of amplifier might not be the best way to go.

Is that because it’s modeled anyhow Dave?

Keyboard recording was far easier, but hey I’m learning stuff!

Thanks.

Ian

[Sam Spoons]

The idea is that you plug your guitar into the DI. You connect the 'thru' of the DI into your amp. You connect the balanced XLR output of the DI into a mic input on your interface.

Yep got that now I thought the splitter woukd offer two outputs of the source - one to the amp the other the interface instrument input.

You are right, it would work and the splitter you link to would get the job done but a DI is the 'conventional' method and has a few advantages over a simple split signal*, primarily that the signal between the DI and the interface is balanced (and at mic level though that is principally a benefit when sending the signal down a snake to a PA desk). A secondary benefit is that you haven't got an extra guitar cable adding capacitance and reducing treble (AKA 'tone suck') to the guitar side of the system.

* And a Orchid Classic DI was about £20 cheaper than the box you linked, he no longer shows prices on the website so you'll have to email him for the current price

http://orchid-electronics.co.uk/classic_DI.htm

[Wonks]

Or creating an almost certain ground loop with mains powered amps or halving the overall input impedance the guitar feeds into.

[Sam Spoons]

John is not selling Orchid products direct anymore which means prices have gone up considerably, Pre covid a Classic DI was £36 it's now £54 from Showbitz.co.uk That's still half the price of a Radial DI mind you...

https://www.showbitz.co.uk/product/orch ... ic-di-box/

[ef37a]

"I would also say that recording the speaker output of THAT particular type of amplifier might not be the best way to go.

Is that because it’s modeled anyhow Dave? "

Well possibly a bit but it also has two speakers and so you would have to back the mic off somewhat to 'integrate' the sound (might be a mono option mind?) The speakers are also not conventional 'guitar' speakers and the sound of the IDs is made 'guitarlike' by the amp's processing. Might work! Never tried, just a feeling. Actually my son has an iD Core 40, might get him to slap a 57 on it and send me a lick?

Yes, DI boxes do have the advantage that you get a balanced mic level signal and ground lift (though I am virtually certain the IDs are earth free?) Most however just passively split the incoming guitar signal so it is still loaded by the DI box and whatever the split goes to. However, interface HZ inputs are very variable, some are as low as 100k Ohms and even a few guitar amps are 470k. Not something people have seemed to notice in isolation.

Ooops! Just seen from Sam's link that the Orchid DI DOES have a buffered output for the guitar split. I stand by the fact however that the vast majority do not and just parallel guitar and amp input. Anyone ever seen the Radial schematic?

Dave.

[The Elf]

John is not selling Orchid products direct anymore which means prices have gone up considerably...

Damn! That's a real shame.

[Wonks]

The Radial J48's input impedance is on the low side at 240k. Not something I'd care for much myself but others use them quite happily, though Radial tend to push them more for passive basses than guitars, where the loss of some top end is often a nice feature.

The Radial PZ-DI would be my choice (if I was buying a Radial) as it offers switchable 240k, 1M and 10M options, so copes with piezos that need a very high input impedance (not all do).

Though with a passive DI, you can always put the guitar through a buffered FX pedal or a clean boost pedal first.

[The Elf]

Interesting. I've always preferred my Radial J48 for bass and my Red Eye (or Orchid) for guitars. I've often wondered what it is that draws me to these conclusions, but I've also never doubted myself. It's just become something I don't even question. Maybe there's something in it...

[ef37a]

Interesting. I've always preferred my Radial J48 for bass and my Red Eye (or Orchid) for guitars. I've often wondered what it is that draws me to these conclusions, but I've also never doubted myself. It's just become something I don't even question. Maybe there's something in it...

I think I am right in saying that the Radial uses a audio transformer whereas the Orchid does not? That might have some bearing on your preference Elf?

Dave.

[The Elf]

Interesting. I've always preferred my Radial J48 for bass and my Red Eye (or Orchid) for guitars. I've often wondered what it is that draws me to these conclusions, but I've also never doubted myself. It's just become something I don't even question. Maybe there's something in it...

I think I am right in saying that the Radial uses a audio transformer whereas the Orchid does not? That might have some bearing on your preference Elf?

Dave.

Possibly, but the Red Eye does have a transformer inside.

[ef37a]

Interesting. I've always preferred my Radial J48 for bass and my Red Eye (or Orchid) for guitars. I've often wondered what it is that draws me to these conclusions, but I've also never doubted myself. It's just become something I don't even question. Maybe there's something in it...

I think I am right in saying that the Radial uses a audio transformer whereas the Orchid does not? That might have some bearing on your preference Elf?

Dave.

Possibly, but the Red Eye does have a transformer inside.

Right, but then for any given size/price of transformer, distortion increases as frequency goes down. I 'think' 3rd harmonic doubles for every every octave drop? So a bass is going to have a bit more 'attitude' than a sixer.

Dave.

[IAA]

Update

Well, hmmm, errr,

A splitter arrived before DI box and high pitched whine, earth loop by the sounds of it. So that’s gone. Hopefully DI box will do the job.

Whilst I was messing about I tried a mic in front of amp vs guitar straight into instrument input on my Apogee interface and then Amplitude.

Amplitude won hands down!

I’m sure you’re not surprised given it’s a modelling practice amp, but it was unbelievably worse than the DI. In fact I’m not sure if the DI box will be required

Clearly if I had a boutique amp (and a drawer full of mics) it might be a different story. But I don’t hear any real latency even going through the software. So for now I’m going to concentrate on DI and see if the box adds anything.

Thanks all.

Ian

[ef37a]

Just slightly confused Ian, have you tried the ID via its USB connection?

Dave.

[IAA]

No Dave, I know it can do that but my projects run through my apogee and I didn’t want to use the AI capability because of workflow.

I suppose as a relatively inexperienced guitarist (being a keys player) I just wanted the best and easiest way to record guitar. The DI route seems easiest and leave the practice amps for well, practice!

Cheers

Ian

[The Elf]

I’m not sure if the DI box will be required...

There are several reasons I record a DI along with any guitar, least of which is to simply re-amp for tone. That DI acts as a guide for timing corrections, and can also be edited to remove fluffs before passing back to the amp to re-record and hide the edits.

So if you get a DI it may be more useful than you imagine!

But if you now plan to always plug straight into your AI then it is, indeed, of questionable value.

[IAA]

It’s tricky Elf. In part I read info/opinion that says plugging into AI is a real no no because of coloring of signal, but to my ears it sounds fine. So i will try a DI just to see - I have a radial turning up on Monday, crossing the splitter going in the opposite direction.

I’m no Gordon, but I want my efforts to sound their best!

Cheers

Ian

[The Elf]

It’s tricky Elf. In part I read info/opinion that says plugging into AI is a real no no because of coloring of signal...

Most of that kind of info/opinion is of dubious quality. If it sounds fine to you then go with it.

It never ceases to amaze me what people can hear when they know what want to hear...

[IAA]

[Wonks]

It can depend on the input impedance of the AI. I think it’s been said before in this thread, but worth repeating, that not all ‘Instrument/Inst’ inputs have the typical 1 megohm impedance that a guitar or bass amp has.

Some are significantly less, with a resulting loss of high end, and some are higher e.g. 2 megohms, resulting in a slightly brighter character.

But then not all active DI boxes have a 1 meg input impedance either.

Assuming that your AI has a 1 megohm impedance, then the other factor that can affect the sound is the lack of acoustic feedback (when using headphones or very quiet monitors) compared to playing a loud guitar amp. Not important in a lot of music styles, but for say loud rock music, you aren’t going to get very long sustained induced feedback notes without some artificial aid (such as a Fernades sustainer or a digital ‘hold’ pedal). Which still won’t get quite the same sound as a semi-acoustic guitar on the edge of body resonance through volume.

So in that instance there will be a difference to a straight DI to an AI’s Inst input that can only be solved by volume at the time of recording. But that’s not strictly down to the Inst input, just the lack of volume to get an acoustic feedback interaction with the guitar.

Loud monitors can achieve very similar results to a loud amp (though most small studio monitors are never going to achieve cranked Marshall stack levels of volume). But for most domestic recording environments, getting a guitar amp or monitors that loud isn’t a feasible proposition anyway.

Otherwise, recording via the Inst input on an AI should capture pretty much the same input as a DI box when playing an amp at fairly quiet levels (a subjective term I know).

Any other difference will come down to the feel of how the player reacts to hearing a software amp compared to a real one, due to the AI round trip and processing latencies (which will be variable depending on the AI and buffer settings and software used). Some people are more sensitive to latency than others. Some can adjust and play slightly ahead of the note, so they hear the note start at the correct time, and some can’t, so that slight delay can put some people off playing at their best.

[Wonks]

But also a to what The Elf said.