Listening Fatigue

[Arpangel]

For the first time in my life I experienced this yesterday, and ironically, it was with some music I did with a friend, he wants to compile it into an album, so he’s treating it like a job.
We sat here repeatedly listening to tracks for about five hours, deciding on the running order, to the point where I was loosing concentration, and I was starting to drift off, it all started to sound the same, my friend could see me fiddling with things on the desk and getting distracted, we had to stop for the day, and distance ourselves from the music.
I’ve never felt like this before, I’m loosing my ability to concentrate as I get older, or is this a common thing, in situations like this, I’m thinking it is.
I not used to doing things like this, a set number of hours in a day, like a job, I’m used to doing a couple of hours here and there.

[Bob Bickerton]

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last sentence.

I really try to avoid critical listening for periods longer than a couple of hours, after which the effort to concentrate becomes more and more challenging. Better to have a break, or move on and come back to it another day.

Bob

[Drew Stephenson]

I find it's one of the advantages of being artist/recorder/mixer/producer in that you can take a decent break from one task and still be productive in the available time.

[RichardT]

Five hours is a long time to be working hard at listening - I can't take more than a couple of hours, after which I can't discriminate what's good and what's bad.

So I think you're entirely normal.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Five hours straight is a ridiculously long time to be critically listening which, if you're doing it right, is extremely brain intensive work. I'd suggest three hours should be the absolute maximum in a stretch, and two hours is better, with a good 30 minute break between sessions.

That said, choosing a running order for a CD really shouldn't take 5 hours, but I suspect you were evaluating each track in full at the same time.

I find it helps to break a project like this into distinct separate tasks.

First evaluate each track to pick the ones to use.

Then draw up a provisional running order and try it. If it doesn't work juggle things around as necessary. You don't need to listen to the full tracks for this, just 20 or 30 seconds each side of the join is plenty. You can roughly balance relative track levels at this stage, and set the gap times. Make notes of any planned processing to match tracks.

Third, consider and apply any EQ/dynamics/level changes needed per track to make them sound coherent together as an album.

Lastly, do a final check of the whole album running right through and make any minor tweaks as necessary.

Print and go to the pub....

Breaking the task down into separate stages allows you to focus on specific things rather than everything at once, and keeps each task short enough that you don't get fatigued (or bored). You'll get a better end product and be confident that its done right.

[ManFromGlass]

From what little I’ve read about the way the prefrontal cortex works do the most important work first thing in the morning. Take breaks. Do the more mindless grunt work the rest of the day. The brain requires a lot of energy so don’t forget food. Don’t forget to get your mind off the project by taking a short walk now and then.
And most importantly don’t take mental or medical advice from a dabbler like me!

[Arpangel]

Five hours straight is a ridiculously long time to be critically listening which, if you're doing it right, is extremely brain intensive work. I'd suggest three hours should be the absolute maximum in a stretch, and two hours is better, with a good 30 minute break between sessions.

That said, choosing a running order for a CD really shouldn't take 5 hours, but I suspect you were evaluating each track in full at the same time.

I find it helps to break a project like this into distinct separate tasks.

First evaluate each track to pick the ones to use.

Then draw up a provisional running order and try it. If it doesn't work juggle things around as necessary. You don't need to listen to the full tracks for this, just 20 or 30 seconds each side of the join is plenty. You can roughly balance relative track levels at this stage, and set the gap times. Make notes of any planned processing to match tracks.

Third, consider and apply any EQ/dynamics/level changes needed per track to make them sound coherent together as an album.

Lastly, do a final check of the whole album running right through and make any minor tweaks as necessary.

Print and go to the pub....

Breaking the task down into separate stages allows you to focus on specific things rather than everything at once, and keeps each task short enough that you don't get fatigued (or bored). You'll get a better end product and be confident that its done right.

Brilliant post Hugh, helped a lot, what you say I sort of do, but I need to be more disciplined about it, and, I’m going to tell my friend we need more breaks.

[Folderol]

Some very good points made above. I sort-of do some of it already, but think I should be a bit more rigorous - thanks

[RichardT]

Just in case it's of any use...

I take a different approach to sequencing the tracks on an album.

I try to build the album very early on - when I have reasonable mixes of the tracks, but way before they are finished. So my whole mixing process is done in the context of listening to the album.

I find this helps a lot - it identifies tracks that don't fit early on so I don't waste time on them. And it helps guide my mixing process on individual tracks.

[Zukan]

With my tinnitus an hour is long enough.

Take breaks, do summat diff, eat things....

[forumuser840717]

Having worked for a fair few years in commercial recording/mastering environments, where an 8-10 hour working day is pretty standard and client demands can lead to quite extended sessions, it's important to be able to maintain consistency for the duration of the job. It's inevitable that one's perception will drift over time and learning how to keep tabs on that and manage/work around it is something that comes with practice. Arguably, it's more important to know when one's work is outside the range of what's acceptable and it's time to just stop rather than waste more time.

To all the excellent advice about managing the project, taking plenty of breaks, and eating sensibly, I'd add to be careful what you're eating, especially to avoid things like big blood sugar spikes/dips which will really vary hearing/perception over quite short timescales, and fatigue levels. Also to keep properly hydrated, and don't go mad on the coffee/tea or energy drinks. They might briefly make you feel more alert but they don't half screw with your aural perception. Combine too many caffeinated drinks with too many hours continuous work and too few breaks and the results aren't likely to be terribly good.

For consistency, it can be good to check the stuff you do later in the day, against what you did earlier, when you were more alert and (hopefully) before your perception is coloured/bent by hours of bashing at problems. The brain very quickly will adapt to accept whatever one is hearing and things which wouldn't pass muster at the start can easily be acceptable/normal after a surprisingly short time so it's important to learn how to maintain a reasonably static reference point from start to finish.

Save things regularly, and before making changes so it's easy to refer back (and step back a stage or two) as, quite often, listening with fresher ears/perception will lead to wanting to wind back on incrimental changes that sneakily cause damage by giving one time to adapt to and normalise each little change. Flicking back several steps can often reveal surprisingly big, and not always beneficial, changes.

If one isn't used to working like this, it can be worth checking back against a well known reference or two at intervals through the day, just to get an idea of how your perception is shifting. That can also help to 're-set' it and a brief change from listening to something you you don't know is 'right' to something you know is, can help relieve fatigue.

[jimjazzdad]

...To all the excellent advice about managing the project, taking plenty of breaks, and eating sensibly, I'd add to be careful what you're eating, especially to avoid things like big blood sugar spikes/dips which will really vary hearing/perception over quite short timescales, and fatigue levels. Also to keep properly hydrated, and don't go mad on the coffee/tea or energy drinks....

No tea and Hobnobs? The horror!

[Drew Stephenson]

...To all the excellent advice about managing the project, taking plenty of breaks, and eating sensibly, I'd add to be careful what you're eating, especially to avoid things like big blood sugar spikes/dips which will really vary hearing/perception over quite short timescales, and fatigue levels. Also to keep properly hydrated, and don't go mad on the coffee/tea or energy drinks....

No tea and Hobnobs? The horror!

On the positive side it's nice to have my next excuse lined up early.

[Hugh Robjohns]

[forumuser840717]

...To all the excellent advice about managing the project, taking plenty of breaks, and eating sensibly, I'd add to be careful what you're eating, especially to avoid things like big blood sugar spikes/dips which will really vary hearing/perception over quite short timescales, and fatigue levels. Also to keep properly hydrated, and don't go mad on the coffee/tea or energy drinks....

No tea and Hobnobs? The horror!

Ah. Now I wouldn't go that far. Just try to make the packet of Hobnobs last more than the first break.

I forgot to mention, a huge refresher during long sessions is to go outside into the fresh air and sunshine (if there is any!), even for just a few minutes. Taking a break outside, sitting in the sun, or even just seeing some daylight, (with an optiona cuppa and Hobnobs) is much more beneficial, both physically and mentally, than sitting in one's studio, staring at a phone/screen and trying to wake up over the same tea and Hobnobs. Better still, take a short walk outside. A five minute wander will be much more refreshing than a 20min break inside. (Take tea and Hobnobs on longer walks.)

[Bob Bickerton]

Exactly.

Also applies to tracking sessions, I get impatient when artists insist on extending long tracking sessions when the creative juices have long dried up!

Bob

[Arpangel]

Exactly.

Also applies to tracking sessions, I get impatient when artists insist on extending long tracking sessions when the creative juices have long dried up!

Bob

This is a tricky one Bob, and I’m just totally honest "look, I’ve had enough, I’m going upstairs, you do what you like, I’ll be back later"