Standing monitors on their sides

[amanise]

Righto then - here's one for you. What about standing monitors on their sides - what kind of mess is that going to make of the sound before it reaches your ears? Assume a perfect room, best amp in the world, and matched pair of monitors with round tweeters on center line with round woofers in the best box in the world. Only thing suggesting which way is up would be the manufacturers labels (which we can assume most likely have no effect on the sound. They certainly don't obscure the cones.). Labels orientation has them tweets up and over the woofs.

Standing them on their heads - no discernible difference apart from slightly more clarity from the tweets. Now then, and here's your chance to shine, what about turning them on their sides? Oooh. First, tweets outside the woofs, then tweets inside. We can deal with one out and one in later - and then right out left in and vice versa as well if its a real goer!

It is a serious post, if I seem to be being flippant. I want to know why manufacturers go to the trouble of making monitors with offset left side and right side tweeters for mounting on their sides. What possible difference to the sound can a few mm offset from the center line of the woofers make? And always above and never below? Now come on... someone's having me on..

[Drew Stephenson]

Think about phase response and the different distance to your ears between the woofer and the tweeter. If you've got your speakers set up as the manufacturer intended (orientation, height and distance) then you should be getting a nice, phase-coherent and time-coherent result at your listening position.
If you rotate the speakers 180 degrees you're going to get a slightly different result. You'll often get a bit of suck-out at the cross-over point.
If you rotate them 90 degrees then you're probably going to amplify this effect.
Have a look at almost any of the speaker reviews in the magazine from Phil Ward or Hugh Robjohns and you'll see some fuzz-measure plots showing you the on and off-axis response.
It should be noted that some people like the sound of monitors on their sides as it can sound more spacious and expand the listening sweet spot, but generally at a cost elsewhere.
Personally, if the engineers at Neumann, Adam, PMC or wherever have gone to great time and expense to define the best result then I'm going to follow their instructions.

[Matt Houghton]

If only there were a magazine that explored these sorts of questions

[Hugh Robjohns]

Well, that saved a lot of typing....

[amanise]

.... You'll often get a bit of suck-out at the cross-over point....

Thanks Drew - Suck out? Would that be a bit of decrease in volume around the frequency which is the cross over between woofer and tweeter?

On the visuals side of things, I'm never sure whether the manufacturers are trying to appeal to my sense of what looks great - and what sounds great. E.g. NS10s (bless em) with the little offset so you can still have the tweeter a bit above the woofer with them on their sides. Surely that's just a visual thing?

[amanise]

If only there were a magazine that explored these sorts of questions

Tee Hee. I hang my head in shame for offending you

[James Perrett]

E.g. NS10s (bless em) with the little offset so you can still have the tweeter a bit above the woofer with them on their sides. Surely that's just a visual thing?

I don't know the official explanation but it certainly keeps the tweeter further from the mixing desk - just a few cm can make a very big difference when you have a large surface in front of the speakers.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think it's a least-worst compromise. PMC did the same with their two-two monitors.

[jaminem]

Can I just throw in that if you don't have a decent sounding treated room, putting the speakers on their sides is the least of your worries at which point, I'd be inclined not to worry about it to much...

[amanise]

Can I just throw in that if you don't have a decent sounding treated room, putting the speakers on their sides is the least of your worries at which point, I'd be inclined not to worry about it to much...

Yes, thank you - that's more than likely why I can't perceive the differences in sound across such 'unapproved' orientations. However, I do know what the room sounds like using reference tracks - so I balance that against what I can perceive via a really nice pair of headphones. 'The Truth' always lying somewhere between the two.

[amanise]

E.g. NS10s (bless em) with the little offset so you can still have the tweeter a bit above the woofer with them on their sides. Surely that's just a visual thing?

I don't know the official explanation but it certainly keeps the tweeter further from the mixing desk - just a few cm can make a very big difference when you have a large surface in front of the speakers.

Hmmm. I can certainly see your point about a large reflective surface - with knobs on. But, wasn't the NS10 designed as a home Hifi listening monitor - which is why all the studios went for them in such a big way? No inconvenient reflective surfaces in that design brief, surely?

[amanise]

I think it's a least-worst compromise. PMC did the same with their two-two monitors.

A bit like my singing then. Understanding beginning to dawn..

[James Perrett]

I seem to remember the first NS10s were intended to be used vertically and it was only with the advent of the Studio version that they rotated the graphics to make it look like they should be used horizontally.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-ns10-story

seems to agree with me.

Edit to add: Yamaha's whole design philosophy seems to be to have the higher frequency drivers offset towards the centre of the stereo spread. Just about all of their speakers that I can find, including the highly respected NS1000, use this arrangement.

[Exalted Wombat]

wasn't the NS10 designed as a home Hifi listening monitor - which is why all the studios went for them in such a big way?

The story goes that they were designed as hi-fi bookshelf speakers but failed in that market, presumably because of their (over-) analytical sound and fatiguing upper-mid range boost. But these faults made them attractive as studio monitors, on the basis of 'if the mix sounds good on these, it'll sound good on ANYTHING'.

[amanise]

The story goes that they were designed as hi-fi bookshelf speakers but failed in that market, presumably because of their (over-) analytical sound and fatiguing upper-mid range boost. But these faults made them attractive as studio monitors, on the basis of 'if the mix sounds good on these, it'll sound good on ANYTHING'.

... and the rest is history.

[Hugh Robjohns]

What about standing monitors on their sides - what kind of mess is that going to make of the sound before it reaches your ears?

Ideally, a speaker should be a point source for best imaging and frequency response linearity. A wide-range speaker is a good effort in this respect, but bandwidth is inherently limited.

So the next best option is a bass driver with concentric tweeter. Tannoy developed this idea amongst others, and good stereo imaging is one of its hallmarks. However, there are significant build complexities and separate tweeter/woofer designs are easier to design and build. So this format dominates.

To maintain good imaging stability it is best if drivers are vertically aligned. This allows the user to move left right without serious frequency response variations -- such as when working st a large desk sat in a wheeled chair!

There will be frequency response variations if the listener moves up/down as the path length to each driver varies.

With the speakers on their side, the up/down response variations become left-right variations and are much more obvious and problematic in normal use.

Standing them on their heads - no discernible difference apart from slightly more clarity from the tweets.

Depending on the relative phasing between woofer and tweeter through the crossover region, there can be a sound beaming effect. So the designer might intend the beam to tilt down in normal use, for example, but that would hen become a tilt up if the speaker is inverted, potentially altering the perceived frequency response.

Now then, and here's your chance to shine, what about turning them on their sides? Oooh. First, tweets outside the woofs, then tweets inside.

The spacing between drivers affects the perceived stereo image width across the corresponding frequency range. Placing tweeters wider than woofers may partially compensate for HF crosstalk in pickup cartridges, for example.

The amount of baffle either side of the tweeter can also affect stereo imaging stability because the edges diffract the sound waves. In general narrower baffles allow better, more stable imaging, as does placing the tweeter closer to the inner baffle edge.

I want to know why manufacturers go to the trouble of making monitors with offset left side and right side tweeters for mounting on their sides.

It's the least worst compromise allowing speakers to be used vertically or horizontally with broadly similar quality in either format.

But if you want the best quality with the ability to use either orientation at will, go for a coaxial design, like the Genelec One models.

[amanise]

...
So the next best option is a bass driver with concentric tweeter. Tannoy developed this idea ...

To maintain good imaging stability it is best if drivers are vertically aligned. This allows the user to move left right without serious frequency response variations -- such as when working st a large desk sat in a wheeled chair!

... there can be a sound beaming effect. So the designer might intend the beam to tilt down in normal use, for example, but that would hen become a tilt up if the speaker is inverted, potentially altering the perceived frequency response.

...But if you want the best quality with the ability to use either orientation at will, go for a coaxial design, like the Genelec One models.

That's a blast from the past - I remember speakers like that (the Tannoy design) being mounted in cars a very long time ago, and had no idea why anyone would want to make them like that! Now it makes perfect sense!

I had not appreciated the need to scoot up and down a long desk, again, perfect sense - thanks!

The sound beaming explains why my particular monitors sound a little different upside down - but more detailed at the top of the range. Maybe that's because they are transmission line speakers and its the low end that's now beaming away from me.

Reading your article on those Genelec Ones makes me think I want to get some of those and get right up close to them.
Thanks very much for your time and efforts, hugely appreciated!

[Hugh Robjohns]