Advice on routing between analog mixer and audio interface

[Rupert Bates]

I wonder if someone can help me with a question I have about routing between an analog mixer and my audio interface

I want to set up a 16 channel mixer with direct outs so that I can send the output from each channel into a separate channel on my 16 channel interface and then into my DAW.
This is simple enough to do, however I would also like to be able to then route the output from the daw back to the mixer and easily switch between using the original source or the source from the daw.

Is there any way I can do this without plugging and unplugging a cable every time I want to switch between sources? It seems like there should be some sort of patchbay where you can plug in two sources and one destination and switch between the sources by pressing a button but I can't find anything that will do that!

Thanks for any help you can offer

[Drew Stephenson]

Does your mixer have insert points or just direct outs?

[ef37a]

Hi Rupert, no AFAIK there is no commercial device that can do this but about a year ago I pondered the problem considering a mixer with inserts.

The simplest idea was a box of jacks and switches that allowed each insert to be either a send to an interface or an input from one. A more sophisticated system would use relays and would allow individual switching or 'all in or out' or various groupings. Once you have relays it is possible to put the whole thing under CPU and software control but you would have to ask Folderol about that!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...Is there any way I can do this without plugging and unplugging a cable every time I want to switch between sources?

Sure. You just need an in-line console...

...or, second best, a split console with 16 tape returns.

...or, third best, you could use the channel insert point to provide the direct out and DAW return.

But if the insert point is a standard unbalanced type you might have connection issues.

As we have no idea what console you have, or what budget you have for a suitable console, it's impossible to offer more practical advice.

[sonics]

It's amusing to me how this question is beginning to reappear fifty years after it was solved. At least if you find you want to move to a bigger (used) desk it'll cost a lot less than it did then.

As Hugh says, get a bigger desk or use a patchbay.

[Rupert Bates]

Does your mixer have insert points or just direct outs?

Well I don't actually have the mixer yet but I was considering the Soundcraft FX16ii which has both inserts and direct outs.
I had though about using the inserts but then the sends will be pre-fader and I want to be able to send post fader.

[Rupert Bates]

...Is there any way I can do this without plugging and unplugging a cable every time I want to switch between sources?

As we have no idea what console you have, or what budget you have for a suitable console, it's impossible to offer more practical advice.

thanks for the response, I was looking at getting a Soundcraft FX16ii, the other alternative would be to go for something like the Big Six which has the interface built in but 12 channels really wouldn't be enough for me.

[Rupert Bates]

Hi Rupert, no AFAIK there is no commercial device that can do this but about a year ago I pondered the problem considering a mixer with inserts.

The simplest idea was a box of jacks and switches that allowed each insert to be either a send to an interface or an input from one. A more sophisticated system would use relays and would allow individual switching or 'all in or out' or various groupings. Once you have relays it is possible to put the whole thing under CPU and software control but you would have to ask Folderol about that!

Dave.

Sounds great, if you ever get it to market let me know!

[Wonks]

Can we assume your interface setup includes at least 16 inputs and 16 outputs + at least two extra outputs for monitors?

[James Perrett]

I'll add another option to Hugh's list - a 32 channel console with 16 channels devoted to inputs and 16 channels devoted to DAW returns. A 32 channel console will probably be easier to find new than a 16 channel console with 16 tape returns although there are plenty of older consoles with tape returns.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I was looking at getting a Soundcraft FX16ii...

It's not ideal, not least because you can't leave DAW returns plugged into the line inputs if you want to use the mic inputs.

Something like the Audient ASP4816 would be perfect... but I'm guessing outside your budget?

[Music Wolf]

Let's go back a step - why do you want to have 16 analogue returns from your DAW into the desk? I'm guessing that it's either;

To have real faders for hands on control, or

You are expecting the mixer to impart some kind of analogue fairydust to your mix.

If it's the latter then, unless you have some serious money to spend, you won't do better than to mix within your DAW.

If it's the former, i.e. hands on control, then have you considered a physical control surface? I use a Behringer X-Touch and X-Touch Expander to give me 16 moving faders .

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1X

[The Korff]

thanks for the response, I was looking at getting a Soundcraft FX16ii

Lovely little desks, those! A lot if channels and connectivity in a very small space, and decent effects too.

You could always go for a Samson S-Patch patchbay. They've got switches on the front to change the normalling, so you can (sort of) achieve mixer input switching on a per-channel basis with that.

[Arpangel]

The FX16 wouldn’t be a good choice here, it’s just too small.
It’s a big mistake to skimp on the mixer, because, in your case, it’s the heart of how you want to work, and you’re at a stage where you can do something about it, you haven’t bought anything yet.
There are a couple of ways, a compromise is to get a mixer with a few sub-group outputs, I did this and fed a 16 track recorder from 8 subs, with no plugging involved, just wire one sub-group to feed 2 channels, 1/3 2/4 etc, then use pan controls to route.
But you will still need enough channels to accommodate your instruments "and" DAW returns. you will really need a minimum 24 or 32 input desk.
As Hugh said, an in-line switchable desk would be ideal, and some aren’t that expensive secondhand, also, you should be OK without groups if your desk has enough inputs, as you say, you can then use direct outputs to feed the DAW.
I’d be looking at things like the older Soundtracks desks the Topaz, the Soundcraft LX7, and Ghost series, these go quite cheaply these days.

[Rupert Bates]

Can we assume your interface setup includes at least 16 inputs and 16 outputs + at least two extra outputs for monitors?

I have 16 ins and outs currently, I would want to drive the monitors off the desk. One of the motivations for this setup is that I can use it without the computer being involved but then easily add it in as a multitrack recorder when I get to the point of wanting to record something.

[Rupert Bates]

I'll add another option to Hugh's list - a 32 channel console with 16 channels devoted to inputs and 16 channels devoted to DAW returns. A 32 channel console will probably be easier to find new than a 16 channel console with 16 tape returns although there are plenty of older consoles with tape returns.

I can see the sense in this option but the extra space needed is a bit offputting, I'm not completely short of it but it is at a premium!

[Rupert Bates]

I was looking at getting a Soundcraft FX16ii...

It's not ideal, not least because you can't leave DAW returns plugged into the line inputs if you want to use the mic inputs.

Something like the Audient ASP4816 would be perfect... but I'm guessing outside your budget?

You guess correctly! It does look perfect though, maybe one day...

I don't use a lot of mics to be honest, most of what I work on is instrumental so a bit of unplugging when I did want to use one wouldn't be the greatest inconvenience.

[Arpangel]

I'll add another option to Hugh's list - a 32 channel console with 16 channels devoted to inputs and 16 channels devoted to DAW returns. A 32 channel console will probably be easier to find new than a 16 channel console with 16 tape returns although there are plenty of older consoles with tape returns.

I can see the sense in this option but the extra space needed is a bit offputting, I'm not completely short of it but it is at a premium!

You sound like me right now, I’ve got a mixer that really isn’t right, and I’m in a quandary about space, it’s awful, just get what you "need" I wish I did, and it’s a job I’ve now got to sort out too.
If you do get a big mixer, it has to be a "recording" mixer, not one designed for PA use, they have all sorts of compromises when it comes to control room monitoring, or a lack of it.
You need to make sure your monitoring section is capable of routing lots of sources to your control room, like groups, otherwise you can get into all sorts of issues regarding feedback when you’re multi-tracking if you can only route to the main mix.

[Rupert Bates]

Let's go back a step - why do you want to have 16 analogue returns from your DAW into the desk? I'm guessing that it's either;

To have real faders for hands on control, or

You are expecting the mixer to impart some kind of analogue fairydust to your mix.

If it's the latter then, unless you have some serious money to spend, you won't do better than to mix within your DAW.

If it's the former, i.e. hands on control, then have you considered a physical control surface? I use a Behringer X-Touch and X-Touch Expander to give me 16 moving faders .

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0B1X

Great question, the main reason is that I really enjoy working completely outside the box with the console at the centre, I do lots of dub style mixing with effects and I've never been able to get anywhere near the speed of working and just feel for the music when working in the box. I've tried various control surfaces over the years but they've all left me unsatisfied.
So this is really about a workflow where the DAW is a multitrack recorder which I don't need to use until I reach the recording stage but when I do get to that stage integrating it as seamlessly as possible.

[Rupert Bates]

thanks for the response, I was looking at getting a Soundcraft FX16ii

You could always go for a Samson S-Patch patchbay. They've got switches on the front to change the normalling, so you can (sort of) achieve mixer input switching on a per-channel basis with that.

Yeah I'm starting to think that that might be the most practical solution

[ef37a]

Hi Rupert, no AFAIK there is no commercial device that can do this but about a year ago I pondered the problem considering a mixer with inserts.

The simplest idea was a box of jacks and switches that allowed each insert to be either a send to an interface or an input from one. A more sophisticated system would use relays and would allow individual switching or 'all in or out' or various groupings. Once you have relays it is possible to put the whole thing under CPU and software control but you would have to ask Folderol about that!

Dave.

Sounds great, if you ever get it to market let me know!

Unfortunately Rupert the device only exists in my head and on the backs of a few envelopes! It would be quite expensive to put on the market, lot of TRS jacks and good quality switches plus a fair bit of chassis bashing.

I take it you already have or have costed for the s***load of jack cables you will need?
Ah! Thought occurs? Costs could be minimized by the use of 25pin D subs...a bit and I think D sub to TRS snakes exist?

Dave.

[forumuser840717]

A DDA Interface (mixer) has (on it's standard mono mic/line channels) separate balanced inputs for mic and line (XLR / TRS respectively) with a switch at the top of the channel strip to choose between them, inserts (unbalanced TRS send/return) and a balanced (or unbalanced) direct out (TRS) which can be switched between pre and post fader and, when pre-fader, has its own level control. (However, the level control is actually the channel's Aux 1 send pot which is isolated from the Aux bus and assigned to the direct out when the DIR button is pressed.)

The Interface series ranges from a rack mountable 8:4:8:2 up to a 32:4:8:2 (though, as they're modular on a per channel basis, these can be reconfigured to be a 12:2 ....36:2 if one doesn't need the groups and just wants extra inputs). They're surprisingly cheap on the used market (I've paid between £30 for a grubby 8:4:8:2 without a PSU (cleaned up like new though!), up to £400 for a mint condition 32:4:8:2 with PSU)), and actually sound very decent. If you intend to use the groups, just be aware that there are two types - Recording and PA, with the latter having matrix outputs instead of tape returns. Also, the stereo mic/line input channels don't have direct outs or inserts.

[Arpangel]

There’s a 24 channel Soundcraft Ghost in readers adds right now for £420.

[Rupert Bates]

I take it you already have or have costed for the s***load of jack cables you will need?

Dave.

Yes I think I mostly have that covered with a maybe few strategic additions

[Rupert Bates]

There’s a 24 channel Soundcraft Ghost in readers adds right now for £420.

God that's tempting, I just think it is too big though plus collection only from London and I'm in Bristol. Must resist...