LUFS small confusion here

[tea for two]

My Master Fader is in the Red permanently to get my EDM piece Volume as High Loud in Volume as ATB 9pm.
Yet it is Clean Clear, No distortion.

For this to have any useful meaning we need to know at what level 'the red' is on your system. Clearly, it's not 0dBFS...
For example, when I'm recording on location using my Zoom F8nPro, if the meters turn red I've hit 0dBFS and there will be distortion. If I use my Nagra VI the meters turn read at -9dBFS and I can tickle the red without problems.

Logic's.

So when I crank up the volume on my Audio interface it is Clean Clear No distortion on my headphones on my speakers.

Yay! The wonders of headroom...

as much as possible workable.

[Wonks]

Are we confusing the terms 'meter' and 'fader' here? Is the meter in the red or is the fader in the red i.e. above 0dB. Or both?

[tea for two]

Are we confusing the terms 'meter' and 'fader' here? Is the meter in the red or is the fader in the red i.e. above 0dB. Or both?

Aaaah I should been clearer. Increasing the Fader doesn't get me the loudness Volume I want compared to ATB 9pm. So I leave the Fader at 0 and adjust the Gain so the Meter is in the red.
Whilst the Integrated LUFS is maintained at around -25.2 and True Peak hovering between -10.7 and -10.2.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...red is a pretty colour, but it is meaningless without some reference level. What matters is the peak level.

At what level do your Logic meters turn red, please?

It seems very odd that uoure saying the meters are permanently red with true peaks as low as -10dBTP...

[tea for two]

...red is a pretty colour, but it is meaningless. What matters is the peak level.

At what level do your Logic meters turn red, please?

It seems very odd

Going by the True Peak for each channel of each track of this EDM piece they don't turn red.
I've made them so they are -12 on average with the overall True Peak of the EDM piece between -10.2 and -10.7.

Yep that's me odd lol. It's how I get the Volume loudness to get near my reference commercial EDM hits whilst still maintaining those -10 True Peak numbers also LUFS around -25.

[Drew Stephenson]

Yep that's me odd lol. It's how I get the Volume loudness to get near my reference commercial EDM hits whilst still maintaining those -10 True Peak numbers also LUFS around -25.

This doesn't make sense to me!
A commercial EDM track is likely to be around -1dBFS True Peak and -10 LUFS (Integrated) so I'm not sure how you're getting comparable loudness with your figures unless your meters are pre-fader and then you're cranking the fader afterwards (in which case your meters could be very misleading).

[tea for two]

Yep that's me odd lol. It's how I get the Volume loudness to get near my reference commercial EDM hits whilst still maintaining those -10 True Peak numbers also LUFS around -25.

This doesn't make sense to me!
A commercial EDM track is likely to be around -1dBFS True Peak and -10 LUFS (Integrated) so I'm not sure how you're getting comparable loudness with your figures unless your meters are pre-fader and then you're cranking the fader afterwards (in which case your meters could be very misleading).

This evening I shall post ere a wav link of the EDM piece.
Nowadays some commercial EDM hurts my ears which it didn't even 5years earlier. Even this ATB 9pm hurts my ears a bit.
Way I get around my EDM pieces not hurting my ears is keeping True Peak low LUFS low.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Way I get around my EDM pieces not hurting my ears is keeping True Peak low LUFS low.

This is laudable, but if the levels are as low as you say, why are your meters "permanently in red"?

[amanise]

...
It's not about getting the signal as hot as you possibly can at each stage of the process.

Outrageous!

Oh well. Back to the manuals for me then.

[muzines]

At what level do your Logic meters turn red, please?

0dBFS, always.

On audio, instrument and buss channels internally, going above 0dBFS is fine and doesn't clip (for reasons we all understand).

On the main stereo output, 0dBFS is clipping, just as you expect.

Logic actually differentiates the severity of hitting 0dBFS in the colours used. On the internal channels, hitting 0dBFS actually makes the "clip" indicator (and top of the meters) go orange (not red), except the output channels, where it does actually go full warning red, along with the top end of the meters.

On playback, Logic has a soft limiter so often if you are clipping a bit, you might not hear distortion. I can't remember offhand the behaviour of what happens in the final fixed point file (ie, if this soft limiter is playback only, and the clipped bounce file may sound different, or if the soft limiter also is baked into the bounce).

In any case, clipping the master is bad, and seems silly to do it, but if someone does it, and likes the resultant sound, well it's their mix I guess..!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks for confirmation of Logic's meters... it is as I remembered. Which means I have absolutely no idea what T42 is going on about. None of wot ee wrote makes any sense...

[tea for two]

Here it is at 16/44.1 downloadable.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13bsaqa ... p=drivesdk
As before True Peak hovering between -10.2 and -10.7 dBTP, Integrated LUFS hovering around -25.2.

Master Fader at 0.

Boosted the Gain on the Master so the Volume loudness gets near to my ref commercial EDM hits, this makes the Meter way in Red.

No compression no limiter on the piece. Not even topped and tailed. Just EQ. Only plugin is BassRider on the Bass.

Mixed on poor Eris

Started on it yesterday pretty much completed yesterday. Going to call it a day on it. Give me ears a rest for a week or so. Thereafter start another piece preehaps.

[Drew Stephenson]

Ok, I've just stuck that into Reaper and the peak numbers are way higher, right up to -0.1 dBFS. And that's peak not True Peak.
I've not got a LUFS meter on this machine but I think you've got your metering set pre-fader and you're then using the fader to boost it - which is making your numbers falsely lower by whatever you've got the master fader set to.

[Aled Hughes]

Ok, I've just stuck that into Reaper and the peak numbers are way higher, right up to -0.1 dBFS. And that's peak not True Peak.
I've not got a LUFS meter on this machine but I think you've got your metering set pre-fader and you're then using the fader to boost it - which is making your numbers falsely lower by whatever you've got the master fader set to.

If you're using Reaper then I thoroughly recommend the SWS Extensions, which have some very useful LUFS and loudness related thing (including analysis of any audio files - though Reaper's 'Media Explorer' might do that by now as well)

[Drew Stephenson]

If you're using Reaper then I thoroughly recommend the SWS Extensions, which have some very useful LUFS and loudness related thing (including analysis of any audio files - though Reaper's 'Media Explorer' might do that by now as well)

I'm on my laptop with an old copy, not my main machine (which has both Melda's loudness analyser plus the latest version of Reaper with it's built in LUFS measurement via the dry run render option).

[tea for two]

Ok, I've just stuck that into Reaper and the peak numbers are way higher, right up to -0.1 dBFS. And that's peak not True Peak.
I've not got a LUFS meter on this machine but I think you've got your metering set pre-fader and you're then using the fader to boost it - which is making your numbers falsely lower by whatever you've got the master fader set to.

Ta for doing this Drew.
Mos Def set to pre fader.
I've boosted the Gain on the Master so it gets near to commercial EDM hits volume that's reason Meter is way in the Red.

[sonics]

As before True Peak hovering between -10.2 and -10.7 dBTP, Integrated LUFS hovering around -25.2.

I agree with Drew. Your numbers are off. You've got about 10dB difference between your metering and you master, so there's about 10dB gain on your mix after the metering. Is your master fader full up (= +10dB)? My figures are 0.0dB TP and about -15 LUFS (for the loudest section).

EDIT: You just confirmed that in the post above! Fix your levels...

[tea for two]

As before True Peak hovering between -10.2 and -10.7 dBTP, Integrated LUFS hovering around -25.2.

I agree with Drew. Your numbers are off. You've got about 10dB difference between your metering and you master, so there's about 10dB gain on your mix after the metering. Is your master fader full up (= +10dB)? My figures are 0.0dB TP and about -15 LUFS (for the loudest section).

EDIT: You just confirmed that in the post above! Fix your levels...

Ta Sonics.

Master Fader at 0.

I've boosted the Gain on the Master to get near to volume of my ref EDM commercial.
That's it no compression no limiter.

Main thing for me is it clear without distortion and loud in volume whilst maintaining dynamics of my playing from soft to medium soft.

[sonics]

Master Fader at 0.

I've boosted the Gain on the Master to get near to volume of my ref EDM commercial.

However you've done it, you have 10dB of gain on your master channel. Your metering needs to be post-fader to indicate the true levels you're producing.

Is there a reason you don't simply bump the mix up to achieve the extra 10dB? Your mix should be close to perfect going into the mix bus IMO.

Also, at -15 LUFS, this is going to be the quietest mix in the club! You must just love those transients!

[Drew Stephenson]

There's nothing wrong with boosting the gain to match your reference tracks, but quoting numbers before your last gain stage just means the numbers are meaningless. Put your final gain plugin before your metering and you'll be quoting something that actually relates to the final output.

[tea for two]

Your metering needs to be post-fader to indicate the true levels you're producing.

Also, at -15 LUFS, this is going to be the quietest mix in the club! You must just love those transients!

I only do this for my EDM pieces.
Of which there's only abooot 10.
My other pieces of which are there are abooot 70 I don't.

Put your final gain plugin before your metering and you'll be quoting something that actually relates to the final output.

Ahaha. I put those in bold for myself.

[Drew Stephenson]

Well you're absolutely free to work however you wish if it gives you the results you want of course,
But you can understand why it confuses the heck out of the rest of us when your numbers don't make sense.

[tea for two]

Well you're absolutely free to work however you wish if it gives you the results you want of course,
But you can understand why it confuses the heck out of the rest of us when your numbers don't make sense.

I feel chuffed I managed to confuse, also including Wonks and Hugh

I really don't want to use compressors limiters on my EDM.
Post Fader which I just did I've had to reduce the Gain on the Master so True Peak is hovering -1.7dbTP
LUFS is hovering -16.6 but I'm not getting the Volume loudness I want.
So it's back to Pre Fader lol for my EDM.

[Hugh Robjohns]

[sonics]

I really don't want to use compressors limiters on my EDM.
Post Fader which I just did I've had to reduce the Gain on the Master so True Peak is hovering -1.7dbTP
LUFS is hovering -16.6 but I'm not getting the Volume loudness I want.
So it's back to Pre Fader lol for my EDM.

So you want your "EDM" tracks to sound louder, but you don't want to use compression on them (like you need to and like everyone does)? Let us know when you work that out; I certainly don't know how to do that, unless it's just turning your monitors up or moving closer to the speakers!

Seriously, though, some simple limiting should give you all the level you need. Your track can easily take 4 or 5dB and will actually sound much better for it (IMO, of course).