Testing out new subtle clean-up plugins/mix feedback request

[MegaBacher]

I produced and engineered the recording of a 6 piece band and this is the first song I worked on for them. I did the mix and this mix marks my first use of Cedar's C-Vox noise reduction plugin and Voxengo's TEOTE. I've been realizing more and more over the last few months just how unavoidable certain flaws are in the recording process, considering how I record in a partially treated small bedroom. My mixes have always been unlistenable to a certain extent, due fully in part to problematic results of recording and mixing in a poorly treated environment. Too muddy or too honky or too blurry were always features of my mixes. This mix starts my constant use of subtle clean-up plugins that I apply prior to actually mixing the song. Noise reduction & corrective EQ (mainly high pass shelving) is what I apply to each track, in a manner that doesn't lose the intended sound. Then I create a new project with the "cleaned" tracks and begin mixing, often including Voxengo's TEOTE on many of the tracks, set to the most subtle mastering setting so as not to be extreme in it's correction. So far, to my ears at least, my mixes are getting cleaner sounding, which was my first goal. Next I'll figure out more creative techniques.

Here's the mix, it's a dad-rock type song by the band Summon The Dog, a 6-piece made up of friends of mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvCuDNpoH9k

Would love to hear any feedback on the qualities of the mix that I might take away some idea on where I might still be missing the chance to correct problematic issues or if I'm making mixing decisions that aren't quite sound.

Also, I use Cubase and Uaudio plugins mainly, but am always looking for plugins I could add to my toolkit. Any cleanup plugins I should check out?

[Sam Inglis]

I think it's possible to get too hung up on perceived problems with your own mixes or your own setup. I don't hear any issues with lack of 'cleanness' in that mix, but equally, it's the style of music where I wouldn't particularly want to hear perfect separation. It's much more important to capture the vibe of the music than to have every source sound pristine.

There's a lot to like about the mix as it is, but I do wonder whether your focus on cleanness has led you to overlook some other issues. One is that the drumming is pretty ropey in places. Since most of the fills are repeated I'd be looking to replace the dodgy ones with better examples from elsewhere in the track or from other takes.

I'm also not convinced about the drum sound. I could be wrong, but it sounds to me as though you've mixed the close mics very loud and also applied some sort of transient or dynamic processing to them which really makes the initial stick attack jump out, especially on the toms. The result is quite an unnatural drum sound that I found a bit fatiguing to listen to. It doesn't really gel either as a kit sound or with the rest of the track, and it draws attention to the sloppy playing. Also, there are places where the kick drum is way too loud, but elsewhere its level is fine, so I'm not sure quite what's happening there. Possibly a wrong setting on a gate threshold?

[James Perrett]

I'd have to agree with Sam - there are a few musical issues there which are far more important to get fixed. At the moment it is just a song writing demo rather than a performance that is ready for release. The drum fills are the main issue but I also noticed something on the bass which would have been easy to correct and I felt that the whole timing was sliding around a bit. This style of music has become very technical so people's expectations are high. To me this sounds like an early take - probably a few more were needed to really get the feel of the song.

I'd also agree that the toms have too much attack and not enough sustain - especially in the breakdown where the toms are exposed.

I'd also like to hear more ambience - it all feels a bit too dry and sterile for my taste.

[RichardT]

I agree with Sam and James - the drum sound and the drum performance leave a lot to be desired.

There are timing issues with most of the tracks actually, including the LH rhythm guitar and the organ.

The way the organ starts sounds is a bit strange too - it's quite tentative. And the bass seems to be missing something at both low and high frequencies.

I think you could also do more with the stereo positioning of the instruments too.

The vocal sound is very good, to my ears. And if you can fix the problems with the drums I don't think it needs to sound cleaner than it already does.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think the gentlemen above have covered most of it, other than to say I think you've got a good song there.

[MegaBacher]

I appreciate the feedback and definitely agree on dynamic issues with using too much of the close mics. Unfortunately it's the mixing style that was demanded by the band, particularly the drummer. He specifically requested the toms to be brought up a lot, which I fought against a bit but ultimately gave him what he wanted. However it's a good point because I've always struggled to balance close mics with far mics when it comes to toms. The overheads often have too much cymbal volume in them, and though the snare picture sounds good in the overheads, the toms rarely ever do. I could probably do something different with the mic setup, but my biggest problem lately is teaching drummers that are new to a studio setting just how they should adjust their playing to serve the purposes of recording.

This particular drummer, especially on this song, I've talked to him a lot about pulling back his playing to achieve a better recording, but it hasn't clicked in his mind yet. He doesn't fully understand the idea of playing for the mics. He only seems to know how to play live show style. He also is too new and stubborn to understand arrangement, and fought me on my advice to simplify some of the earlier sections. When the first response here was "the drums were fatiguing", I knew right away why I agree and how I would've done it differently. Unfortunately with this particular song I was stuck with a crap drummer who may eventually learn studio technique.

The other feedback I appreciate was the one about clinical mixing styles, while I wasn't mixing this with cleanup plugins just to be clean, it is noteworthy that I have a habit of mixing everything clean, with some delays and reverbs. I'm working on changing that up, but if the mix lacks personality it's probably because of my mixing style. It's something I'm working on. With this song, I aimed for a clean straight forward sound because they want to use these demos for getting hired at gigs, and it should represent the sound one could imagine being achieved at a live show, or so I was thinking.

[Sam Inglis]

It sounds as though you have two separate issues with this particular drummer then! One is that he can't balance his playing as well as you'd like. The other is that his timing isn't good enough.

On the first point, persuading any musician to change his or her technique for the studio is a delicate business. It's also one where you need to take the long-term view. Given that he's clearly struggling to play the song at all, it's probably not realistic to expect him to change his entire technique overnight. So I think you probably need to think about how you might ameliorate this problem at the tracking stage. For example, you could try placing your overhead mics behind or in front of the kit, on the same plane as the cymbals. That might alter the balance between cymbals and toms picked up in those mics.

On the second point, I'm afraid you just need to get stuck in and do a lot more editing to these drum recordings. Drumming that's obviously out of time just won't cut it. Until that's sorted out, this track isn't going to be a useful shop window either for you or the band, sadly.

[Drew Stephenson]

I think a lot of musicians, not just drummers , can struggle with the idea that you need to change your playing style for recording and live. It's certainly something it took me a bit of time to figure out from both a playing and recording perspective.

[RichardT]

I think a lot of musicians, not just drummers , can struggle with the idea that you need to change your playing style for recording and live. It's certainly something it took me a bit of time to figure out from both a playing and recording perspective.

That's true - in this case the problem is worse because it doesn't look like the drummer accepts his weaknesses. This makes it much trickier to deal with.

to the OP - there's nothing fundamentally wrong in my view with the basic sound of the mix, other than the drums.

Is it possible you could get another take of the song, which would give you more drum material to work with?

[James Perrett]

I'd be very wary of asking a drummer to change their style when they get to the studio. That's not the job of the engineer anyway - that's the producer's job and the producer should have gone along to a rehearsal a few weeks before the session and ironed out these issues. I very much agree with Steve Albini's approach

The presumption that I start with is that the drummer already has the sound worked out within the band

from https://bobbyowsinskiblog.com/steve-albini-drums/

The engineer's job is to capture the best performance of the band's song. I know of many engineers who disagree, but the ones whose work I like tend to work with basically live tracks.