How much time do you guys spend on phase and any plugins to help?

[shazer]

Just wondering what you guys do in terms of making sure stuff is in phase and if there are any particular plugins you use to give you maybe visual feedback.

[Drew Stephenson]

It's really only drums and bass that I tend to consider phase with. Most other stuff I either record in mono or with a coincident array.
For drums I will tend to look pretty carefully at it but it's generally a case of manually aligning to a single source (normally the snare) and then toggling the polarity of the channel to make sure nothing funny is happening.
For bass it's something I'll check if I'm introducing a bit of sub over the top of a recorded bass or if I'm recording double bass and not using a coincident pair (again a simple toggle check and manual alignment).
But I wouldn't take my advice when someone else tells you different!

[Wonks]

Two close mics on a guitar cab , say an SM57 and a ribbon or a condenser, will also require phase alignment, but it's generally easier to do it manually in the DAW than use a plug-in.

You can of course get the mics correctly positioned to start with, and Jack Ruston's method of using white noise through the amp, flipping the polarity on one channel and then positioning the second mic until you get a null in the signal (almost total cancellation) is an easy method, providing you have something to feed a white noise signal into the amp (a re-amp box is good for this). Obviously you need to mix the two mic channels to a common track panned centrally to hear back through headphones (you don't want one mic in one ear and one in the other).

Using noise means that you don't need to look for the start of transients to align the mics as the non-repetitive nature of noise means the mic diaphragms must be the same distance from the speaker to get a null.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... ric-guitar

[James Perrett]

I will only worry about it if I hear something amiss - although I sometimes just try flipping the polarity on something just to see how it sounds. I've also modified Reaper's JS channel time delay to make it easy to adjust the time delay down to single sample steps which is useful for some of the things I do although not normally for general mixing use.

The best tool to check phase relationships between two sources is the goniometer or X-Y display. This basically displays the instant level of both channels - one horizontally and one vertically. If both channels are identical then you will see a single line at 45 degrees. If one channel is identical but reverse polarity you will see a line at -45 degrees. A true stereo signal is going to give you a cloud of points but you soon learn to interpret the features of this cloud.

All this comes as standard with Reaper and probably most other DAWs too.

[shazer]

It's really only drums and bass that I tend to consider phase with. Most other stuff I either record in mono or with a coincident array.
For drums I will tend to look pretty carefully at it but it's generally a case of manually aligning to a single source (normally the snare) and then toggling the polarity of the channel to make sure nothing funny is happening.
For bass it's something I'll check if I'm introducing a bit of sub over the top of a recorded bass or if I'm recording double bass and not using a coincident pair (again a simple toggle check and manual alignment).
But I wouldn't take my advice when someone else tells you different!

Ok thanks, do you consider phase when layering say more than one drum snare hit for example. One thing I was wondering, you get the phase button on DAWs but isn't there like a more subtle way of dealing with it - like two guitars might not be cancelling each other out so the button doesn't do a great deal but there could be room for some sort of re-alighment in the DAW.

[amanise]

I have a question about this and my Vox setup now having tried to understand the whole thing via this article;
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... emystified
I'm afraid I didn't do too well.

Sorry if I'm seeming to hijack the thread - but while we're on phase it seems a related question. If the OP doesn't mind I'd like to explore what I'm doing in respect of phase relationships between 2 very different mics used at the same distance from the source, with one feeding a tonal effects unit on its way the the adjacent desk channel as the first mic - which is fed straight to its desk channel?

[shazer]

Two close mics on a guitar cab , say an SM57 and a ribbon or a condenser, will also require phase alignment, but it's generally easier to do it manually in the DAW than use a plug-in.

You can of course get the mics correctly positioned to start with, and Jack Ruston's method of using white noise through the amp, flipping the polarity on one channel and then positioning the second mic until you get a null in the signal (almost total cancellation) is an easy method, providing you have something to feed a white noise signal into the amp (a re-amp box is good for this). Obviously you need to mix the two mic channels to a common track panned centrally to hear back through headphones (you don't want one mic in one ear and one in the other).

Using noise means that you don't need to look for the start of transients to align the mics as the non-repetitive nature of noise means the mic diaphragms must be the same distance from the speaker to get a null.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... ric-guitar

This white noise thing is fascinating, the stuff people come up with eh? I'm using IRs after the attenuated signal from the Suhr Reactive Load goes into the DAW. I am mixing up a high gain sound by using say pedals but I really love one particular IR Cab and I don't want to swap around cabs just to get a different flavour. I like the guitar sound I'm getting layered but have been wondering about slight phase adjustments in the tracks to get the tracks perfect or am I overthinking it.

[shazer]

I will only worry about it if I hear something amiss - although I sometimes just try flipping the polarity on something just to see how it sounds. I've also modified Reaper's JS channel time delay to make it easy to adjust the time delay down to single sample steps which is useful for some of the things I do although not normally for general mixing use.

Can I ask what you use this trick for?

The best tool to check phase relationships between two sources is the goniometer or X-Y display. This basically displays the instant level of both channels - one horizontally and one vertically. If both channels are identical then you will see a single line at 45 degrees. If one channel is identical but reverse polarity you will see a line at -45 degrees. A true stereo signal is going to give you a cloud of points but you soon learn to interpret the features of this cloud.

All this comes as standard with Reaper and probably most other DAWs too.

This is really useful as I have Reaper thanks! What I'd like is some plugin with a slider to try and get phase perfect if that even is possible or even required, I'm really not sure if I'm just plain overthinking it and if it sounds good then I should crack on. I suppose it's just a case of if I refine it a bit will the sound go up a level, guitars are fatter, distortions sound beter etc

[shazer]

I have a question about this and my Vox setup now having tried to understand the whole thing via this article;
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... emystified
I'm afraid I didn't do too well.

Sorry if I'm seeming to hijack the thread - but while we're on phase it seems a related question. If the OP doesn't mind I'd like to explore what I'm doing in respect of phase relationships between 2 very different mics used at the same distance from the source, with one feeding a tonal effects unit on its way the the adjacent desk channel as the first mic - which is fed straight to its desk channel?

This hijacking doesn't phase me at all

[Hugh Robjohns]

The best tool to check phase relationships between two sources is the goniometer or X-Y display. This basically displays the instant level of both channels - one horizontally and one vertically. If both channels are identical then you will see a single line at 45 degrees. If one channel is identical but reverse polarity you will see a line at -45 degrees. A true stereo signal is going to give you a cloud of points but you soon learn to interpret the features of this cloud.

I agree with the recommendation... but your description is for an XY display whereas most audio goniometers and vectorscopes rotate the display -45 degrees such that identical channels produce a vertical line, and opposite polarities a horizontal line.

The rotation greatly improves the mental translation of what is being shown, not least because Left only is -45 degrees (ie. leaning left at the top) and Right only is +45 degrees (leaning right).

[Drew Stephenson]

Ok thanks, do you consider phase when layering say more than one drum snare hit for example. One thing I was wondering, you get the phase button on DAWs but isn't there like a more subtle way of dealing with it - like two guitars might not be cancelling each other out so the button doesn't do a great deal but there could be room for some sort of re-alighment in the DAW.

Well, the layering of samples isn't something I tend to do, but with the two guitars example I'll generally start with James' approach of only considering it I'm hearing something I don't like, and then, like Wonks, I'll have a look in the DAW and likely shuffle one of the tracks left or right to align them. Then I'll toggle the polarity again just to check I haven't made things worse again.

I know there are plugins around that can speed this process up hugely, I think Nugen Audio do a 'time align' or something like that? If I was doing lots of work with multi-mic'd drumkits I'd probably consider it but it's not a problem I need to tackle with what I'm working on.

[shazer]

Ok thanks, do you consider phase when layering say more than one drum snare hit for example. One thing I was wondering, you get the phase button on DAWs but isn't there like a more subtle way of dealing with it - like two guitars might not be cancelling each other out so the button doesn't do a great deal but there could be room for some sort of re-alighment in the DAW.

Well, the layering of samples isn't something I tend to do, but with the two guitars example I'll generally start with James' approach of only considering it I'm hearing something I don't like, and then, like Wonks, I'll have a look in the DAW and likely shuffle one of the tracks left or right to align them. Then I'll toggle the polarity again just to check I haven't made things worse again.

I know there are plugins around that can speed this process up hugely, I think Nugen Audio do a 'time align' or something like that? If I was doing lots of work with multi-mic'd drumkits I'd probably consider it but it's not a problem I need to tackle with what I'm working on.

Ok thanks, I was just wondering if generally there was some kind of phase alignment check and adjustment people do between potentially competing sources to perfect the sound even if it isn't instantly audible.

[amanise]

I have a question about this and my Vox setup now having tried to understand the whole thing via this article;
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... emystified
I'm afraid I didn't do too well.

Sorry if I'm seeming to hijack the thread - but while we're on phase it seems a related question. If the OP doesn't mind I'd like to explore what I'm doing in respect of phase relationships between 2 very different mics used at the same distance from the source, with one feeding a tonal effects unit on its way the the adjacent desk channel as the first mic - which is fed straight to its desk channel?

This hijacking doesn't phase me at all

Well lets hope I don't get phasered by any of the others then!

Firstly - I'm not aware of any problems I might be getting - but I'm not sure what that would 'sound' like anyway. What I'm doing is this;

2 mics the same distance as each other from the back side of the same pop shield in a completely enclosed isolation booth.
Mic 1 - Rhode NT1a - connected straight to desk stereo ch1 fully panned left.
Mic 2 - SM57 connected to a megaphone effects unit, and then on to desk stereo ch2 panned fully right.
A light amount of compression is provided on an insert on both ch1 and ch2 with an Alesis 2 channel compressor. set to suit each signal individually.
That separates the audio output to the DAW clean left side and Megaphone right side, and smooths each out a bit.
DAW then has two stereo input channels, one taking input from incoming left side, one from the right. The result is two mono recorded channels, one clean audio from NT1a and the other megaphoned from the SM57.

Goes without saying that when singing I get clean in left ear and megaphone in right ear - but I'm used to that now. If I want to really freak myself out I put my headphones on backwards. Before mixing everything I render each recorded channel out to stereo audio files so that they can be panned around as required when brought back into the mix.

Now I'm not aware of any phasing issues if I'm getting them. The megaphone side is so tonally mangled its not even close to the clean side in terms of timbre. Shoould I be worried about phase with this setup?

[sonics]

Ok thanks, I was just wondering if generally there was some kind of phase alignment check and adjustment people do between potentially competing sources to perfect the sound even if it isn't instantly audible.

Since I started engineering in pre-computer times, my first phase alignment tool was called "moving the microphones".
Sample alignment in hardware samplers came next, along with using tiny delays and MIDI offsets.
I am still always mindful of phase relationships when ever more than one mic is recording together. Drum kits, choirs, ensembles, pianos even. Often I will adjust phase to confirm I have my preferred sound. With a kit, I don't rely on the "measure the distance from the snare drum" method, since I think it's intrinsically flawed. I use my ears since they're better at sound engineering that a tape measure is. Meters can help.

I use DAW adjustments and plugins now. I used to use Little Labs IBP, but since dropping the UAD system use Waves' InPhase and Melda's MAutoAlign.
I know others that use Radix and SSL software.

[James Perrett]

The best tool to check phase relationships between two sources is the goniometer or X-Y display. This basically displays the instant level of both channels - one horizontally and one vertically. If both channels are identical then you will see a single line at 45 degrees. If one channel is identical but reverse polarity you will see a line at -45 degrees. A true stereo signal is going to give you a cloud of points but you soon learn to interpret the features of this cloud.

I agree with the recommendation... but your description is for an XY display whereas most audio goniometers and vectorscopes rotate the display -45 degrees such that identical channels produce a vertical line, and opposite polarities a horizontal line.

The rotation greatly improves the mental translation of what is being shown, not least because Left only is -45 degrees (ie. leaning left at the top) and Right only is +45 degrees (leaning right).

For some reason I was sure that I had used one like that but you are right, the Reaper one does rotate it by 45 degrees. I was thinking of how things look on a standard oscilloscope when you use the X-Y funcition.

[James Perrett]

I will only worry about it if I hear something amiss - although I sometimes just try flipping the polarity on something just to see how it sounds. I've also modified Reaper's JS channel time delay to make it easy to adjust the time delay down to single sample steps which is useful for some of the things I do although not normally for general mixing use.

Can I ask what you use this trick for?

I use it for aligning channels on a stereo signal that has come from a misaligned tape machine. However, now that I have RX Advanced, I tend to use RXs Azimuth tool which works in fractions of a sample for better precision.

[DC-Choppah]

I hate that swishy sound. When you hear it you till know. Mics need to be coherent.

You can just add time delays into the channels and follow your ear.

If you have two mics on a source with a 'swishy' sound, put a short time delay on the closer mic and use your ear to get rid of the swishes.

[rggillespie]

I remember reading somewhere a well known americana producer swore by sound radix auto align for phase issues. Its well reviewed in the magazine this month and seems designed for phase issues.

[shazer]

Great question! In my own workflow, I typically spend a significant portion of time ensuring my mix is in phase, especially when dealing with multi-mic setups, stereo recordings, or complex synthesizers. It's not always quantifiable, but I'd say it's a consistent focus throughout the process.

For phase checking, I've found a few plugins particularly useful. First off, I use Voxengo's PHA-979. It allows me to adjust phase relationships in a very detailed way and has a helpful visual representation. Another tool I like is the Waves InPhase plugin, which provides an intuitive interface for time-aligning and phase correcting tracks. For stereo phase issues, I use the Stereo Tool v3 plugin from Flux. It's great for analyzing the stereo field and detecting potential phase problems.

A good technique I use frequently is to periodically check my mix in mono. This helps me spot phase cancellation issues that may not be evident in a stereo setting. In terms of DAWs, most have a mono button, or you can use a plugin (like bx_solo from Brainworx) that can convert your output to mono.

Good old Mono check helps with everything eh thanks! One thing I wondered about these plugins, say you want to check a couple of guitar tracks do you send them both to a buss and then put the plugin like InPhase in on that?

[sonics]

One thing I wondered about these plugins, say you want to check a couple of guitar tracks do you send them both to a buss and then put the plugin like InPhase in on that?

You could, or for two mono tracks you only need one bus. Have a look at the InPhase manual HERE. BTW, SOS reviewed InPhase some years ago which you can read HERE.

[Wonks]

If they are two separate guitar parts, I would question why you'd worry about phase. Each note played by each guitar is going to start at a slightly different time to the other one, so the phase of each note will be slightly different as well. It's all part of what makes having two guitars play the same part interesting to hear. You'd have to adjust each note for phase issues!

You only need to worry about phase in that situation if you've got one guitar recording split to two or more channels and being processed differently, when the resulting tracks cold well have fixed phase differences. But if they are processed very differently, e.g. one clean, one very distorted, then you may not hear any phase issues at all. And if you are splitting them hard left and right, then you can do with a slight delay on one channel (with associated phase issues) to make them sound big. Just have to check that they don't then sound weak when heard in mono.

[shazer]

If they are two separate guitar parts, I would question why you'd worry about phase. Each note played by each guitar is going to start at a slightly different time to the other one, so the phase of each note will be slightly different as well. It's all part of what makes having two guitars play the same part interesting to hear. You'd have to adjust each note for phase issues!

You only need to worry about phase in that situation if you've got one guitar recording split to two or more channels and being processed differently, when the resulting tracks cold well have fixed phase differences. But if they are processed very differently, e.g. one clean, one very distorted, then you may not hear any phase issues at all. And if you are splitting them hard left and right, then you can do with a slight delay on one channel (with associated phase issues) to make them sound big. Just have to check that they don't then sound weak when heard in mono.

Brilliant that's put my mind to rest thanks!