New RCF 702as MK3 and HD10a or FBT Promaxx 110a and Sublime 112sa?

[dickiefunk]

I am currently in the process of scaling down my Yamaha DXR15/QSC KW181 system as I have stopped doing sound for bands. I am moving more into doing sound for acoustic acts without a drum kit and for my own gigs as well.
For my own gigs (jazz/soul/gospel with 4x vocals, keys and bass) I’ve been temporarily using my floor monitors (Alto TS210) which have been pretty good but I’d like to have something that is a step up in audio quality/performance.
I need small and very lightweight tops with at least one side handle that can handle keys, bass and vocals at wedding ceremonies and smallish gigs and add small lightweight subs if I need to do a band at smallish events.

RCF have just announced a new 702as mk3 sub which is a little bigger and heavier 21kg) than the old model and also has their new Bass Motion dsp added. I’m not sure whether it uses the same driver yet but hopefully RCF will add it to their site soon. This sub looks like a great option as I’m also considering their HD10a tops.
I’ve also heard great things about the FBT Promaxx and Subline series and I’m considering their Promaxx 110a with the Subline 112sa subs.

Has anyone on here had any experience with the RCF10a mkV’s and FBT Promaxx 110a?
Also, I’m looking for opinions on the RCF 702as and FBT Subline 112sa subs? Has anyone had experience with both of these?
Ideally I’d like to demo and compare both systems myself but I’m not aware of any store in the UK that stocks both of these brands. Also, it is way out of my budget to buy both systems to compare.

What are peoples opinions on the RCF and FBT systems I am considering?

[dickiefunk]

RCF had just posted the new 702as mk3 on their website.

https://www.rcf.it/en/products/product- ... 702-as-mk3

The cabinet is a little bigger and it now includes their new Bass Motion dsp which they added to their new 9 Series tops.

As they are not in stores yet I have no idea as to how much effect this will have on real world performance.
I like that it is 2kg lighter than the FBT Subline 112sa I’m considering. The specs for the FBT sub say it goes a couple of db louder and the RCF goes marginally deeper but I don’t know how these specs were measured.

[Wonks]

I like that it is 2kg lighter than the FBT Subline 112sa I’m considering.

It's actually a bit lighter than that as I think you're using the RCF's shipping weight.

The FBT weighs 50.7 lbs(23kg), whilst the RCF is quoted at 40.12lbs (18.2kg) in the manual. That's 10.6 lbs/ 4.8kg lighter. Not inconsiderable.

I'm not sure about the FBTs quoted frequency response. They say 40Hz-140Hz @-6dB, yet the graph on the data sheet gives a much different view of the response, and it's -6dB points from the peak output at about 63Hz are at 53Hz and 90Hz. At 40Hz, the graph shows an output 16dB down from peak and at 140Hz, it's 11dB down from peak.

https://fbtaudio.2dimg.com/resources/15 ... 1_2832.pdf

But there is a DJ preset on the FBT with 'very powerful bass' so the frequency response may be altered by the DSP in that mode to produce less overall peak output but with an extended frequency response.

The RCF just has a simple 80Hz/110Hz crossover switch.

On paper, the RCF sounds more appealing to me.

[dickiefunk]

The new mk3 702 as is heavier than the mk2 version. The mk2 weighs 18.2 and the new model 21kg. Shipping weight for the mk3 is 25kg.

I heard a single FBT Subline 112sa in a shop and whilst it was less than ideal listening conditions, I was really surprised at the performance of such a small sub. It was paired with a Ventis 206a top and I thought the system sounded great!

I know a few people who have used both the mk2 RCF 702as and the FBT Subline 112as and they al thought the FBT had the edge in output and punch. However, the new mk3 702as has a larger cabinet and Bass Motion technology. Not sure what effect this will have in performance but I would expect some small improvement?

[Wonks]

They've got the lower weight (18.2kg) listed in the MK3 user manual, whilst they've got 21kg listed in the Mk3 spec sheet.

Never mind, it is what it is.

[jimmymio]

Any updates on this topic? I too am curious about the weight of the RCF. Also, like the OP, I'm interested in performance.
I have been using a single JBL XLF18 and my 69 year old back is getting tired of lifting it in and out of my truck. So I am considering replacing it with a pair of smaller subs but wondering how much I would give up thump wise.

[dickiefunk]

I have spoken to a couple of people who have used the FBT and RCF systems and they both said the FBT VN2000 (Ventis 206a tops and Subline 112sa) are what they preferred. Both said the Ventis 206a tops have more clarity, vocal intelligibility, and output and the FBT Subline 112sa has a little more output and punch than the RCF sub.
I’m still saving up so won’t have one for a while!

[dickiefunk]

Thought I’d post an update. I got to hear and use an RCF HD10mkV/702asII system at the weekend and have to say I was very surprised with this tiny pa.
Firstly I wasn’t expecting the 702 subs to be so small! They are so small and light to carry! Also, I was surprised and the output of this tiny system!
There was a full band running through the pa - drums (fully miked, bass, guitar, keys and vocals) and the sound was surprisingly full and went very loud! The subs were only turned up to around 60% so I’d like to hear how much these can sensibly be pushed. I am hoping to borrow this system to compare it thoroughly against my Yamaha DXR15’s and Alto 10” tops.

This RCF pa costs over £1000 less than the FBT VN2000 and the sub is noticeably lighter and ergonomically easier to carry which is extremely appealing! RCF recently launched a mk3 version of their 15” 905 sub which is only around 3kg heavier than the FBT 12” Subline 112sa so at this weight I would be more tempted to go that route. However, the weight and size of the smaller RCF setup is way more appealing to me these days!

[dickiefunk]

I had an opportunity to try out the RCF HD10a mkV 702as mkII system alongside my DXR15’s and Alto TS210’s yesterday. I ran keys, bass, vocals and pre recorded music through them.
I was surprised that the cabinet of the RCF HD10a’s are smaller than the Altos. Also, the cabinet is a lot more rugged and I would expect it to withstand knocks a lot more than the TS210’s!
When it came to comparing just the HD10’s and Alto TS210’s there wasn’t really any comparison in audio quality. It was immediate to hear more clarity, depth of bass and output. This is very impressive for such a small speaker at this budget.

When it came to comparing against the Yamaha DXR15’s, I paired the RCF HD10a’s with the 702 subs. When I compared these, there was noticeably more mid range and vocals really leapt out compared to the DXR15’s. The DXR’s had a little more hf sparkle which was nice and they sounded more open and wider. The RCF’s didn’t quite have as wide a dispersion as the Yamahas. The Yamahas also had more low mids but when switching back and fourth between both systems certain things on the Yamahas sounded like they had a veil over them.
When it came to bass response, the RCF 702as really exceeded my expectations! This tiny sub was actually smaller than a DXR15 and weighs 4kg lighter. It is also easier to carry! Regarding sound, this sub had noticeably more depth and really put out a surprisingly high output! Also, I couldn’t detect and distortion or port chuffing. I tried the Alto 12” TS sub and there isn’t any competition between these. The Alto sub suffered from a lot of port noise at much lower volumes and the overall sound just sounded boomy and muddy! I found these subs practically unusable for running a bass guitar through them.
My only criticism of this small RCF system is the Yamaha DXR’s sounded a little smoother, hf detail and had a little more output. However, there’s aspects of the RCF system I preferred over the DXR’s and I’m not sure I need the max output of the DXR’s anymore.

The mk2 version of the RCF 702as subs have now been discontinued and been replaced with the mk3. This new sub uses their Bass Motion limiting which allows for a little more bass extension and depth of bass. The new cabinet is a little bigger which I would guess is to allow for this performance increase.

Has anyone heard any of RCF’s mk3 subs and the mk2 versions? Can you hear an increase in performance with the new Bass Motion?

[Sam Spoons]

On paper, and given you liking fo the DXR15's, I'd think the Yamaha DZR series would be worth a look?

[dickiefunk]

I have tried the Yamaha DZR12’s and and these were pretty decent. However, I found the DXR15’s could handle more bass without distortion of port noise. Also, the DZR’s had a an odd harmonic distortion going on with certain combined frequencies which Yamaha acknowledged at a later date. I think this had now been addressed and fixed but to be honest, the DXR10’s are 6-7 kg heavier and cost almost twice the price of the RCF HD10’s.

FBT and EV make similar options to the RCF but I have no way of comparing these. The FBT Promaxx 110a and EV ELX200 10p both have a larger voice coils for the compression driver which may have a little more hf clarity/openess than the RCF HD10’s? It’s a real shame RCF’s ART910 and NX910 speakers don’t have side handles.

[jimmymio]

curious that the 910 doesn't have a side handle. It is heavy enough that it would seem to warrant one.

[dickiefunk]

I'm also interested in the EV ELX200 10p/ELX200 12sp system. I know a couple of people who have used both the RCF HD10 mkV/702asII system and the EV system and they both preferred the EV.

I am not really using my DXR15's anymore (perhaps once a year) and have sold the KW181's.

For most of my gigs I'm just using a single pair of Alto TS210's as I do a lot of wedding gigs including the ceremonies and need something discreet at the front of a church or high end hotel. I also need something that is very light as I often have to carry them a fair distance due to access to some of the more rural picturesque venues I play. I have successfully run 3-4 vocals, keys and 5 sting electric bass or upright bass through them and have been generally very surprised at the results given I only paid around £180-£200 each for these speakers. They have been very reliable workhorses and have paid for themselves every month over and over!
I have borrowed and tried the RCF system and the RCF HD10mkV's outperformed the Alto's in every regard. My only complaint was the highs sounded a little pinched and the soundstage didn't sound as wide and open as my Yamaha DXR's.
The 702asii sub sounds surprisingly bigger than it looks and I first used them with the HD10 mkV's at a church running keys, bass and vocals through them for a gospel choir event and they sounded great. I've also used this RCF system three times with a full live band - 2x vocals, keys, electric guitar and a fully miked kit. Everything went through the PA as there were no backline amps or wedges. Everyone was using IEM's and the guitarist and bass player used modelling pedals going straight into the PA. One of the venues was a large 250 seater hall, one was a smallish heavily dampened marquee and the other was a low ceilinged function room. What I consistently found was the sound on the dance floor sounded really good but the system couldn't throw the sound any further. If I turned the output up on the back of the speakers the limit light starting coming on a lot. Whilst I'm not really planning to use the PA for many if any band gigs, it does make me wonder how well this mini system would do in larger venues for the type of jobs I will be using them for. The biggest thing this little system lacked for much louder gigs is being able to project the sound longer distances. Admittedly my old DXR15/KW181 system is a lot bigger and more expensive but I never once had an issue with output and throw including a small outdoor festival with 500 people and a heavily lined marquee with 350+ people. Whilst I'm definitely not looking to do big gigs like this anymore, I need to know that whatever I buy won't run out of power at any point.
The RCF HD10's had noticeably more output, vocal clarity and low frequency depth than my current Alto TS210's so I know they will already cover all my wedding gigs. As for the larger gospel choir events when I use subs aswell, we occasionally have a drummer so I need something that will carry over the volume of this and preferably be able to run a small amount of drums through the pa and have enough throw/output for these events.
One thing I've noticed about both the EV ELX200 10p is they have larger voicecoils for the compression and low frequency drivers (1.4" and 2.5" vs RCF's 1" and 2") more powerful amps and a slightly higher max spl. I'm not sure how this will translate in real world performance though? Similarly, the FBT Promaxx 110a has a more powerful amp and slightly higher max spl. Regarding the subs, the FBT has the highest max spl rating though this is pretty small. Its 12” driver also has a 3” voicecoil. The RCF 702 has a smaller 2.5” voicecoil though it has the new Bass Motion limiting dsp which apparently reduces bass roll off when being driven at higher spl’s. I don’t know how this translates in real world performance though. I don’t know the size of the EV’s voicecoil but apart from that, its performance looks similar. One of the guys I know who has tried both the RCF 702as mk3 and EV ELX200 12sp said he thought the EV went lower despite what the specs say.

Has anyone on here had experience with more than one of these systems? Sadly I don't know of a store that has more than one of these systems so getting to hear them is virtually impossible!

[AlecSp]

Sadly I don't know of a store that has more than one of these systems so getting to hear them is virtually impossible!

Just order them from Thomann and send back what you don't want - easy. (And I've suggested this previously)

[dickiefunk]

Sadly I don't know of a store that has more than one of these systems so getting to hear them is virtually impossible!

Just order them from Thomann and send back what you don't want - easy. (And I've suggested this previously)

Whilst this is an option I can only have one system here at a time so no real meaningful way to compare especially given the time it takes to return one system and wait to get another one to audition.

[Sam Spoons]

This works if you can afford to buy both systems then return one for a refund. It's not my preferred way of buying as the retailer takes a hit for the return but in your situation it may still be a viable option?

[dickiefunk]

I don’t have the budget to buy both systems sadly. I’m also not a fan of trying things this way due to the retailer taking a hit.

[Sam Spoons]

Yup, both valid reasons for choosing a different route...

[AlecSp]

I don’t have the budget to buy both systems sadly. I’m also not a fan of trying things this way due to the retailer taking a hit.

They wouldn't offer the service if they couldn't afford it.

And it drives sales. Right now, they've not sold anything to you. But they could...

In the end, it's your privilege not to take up their genuine offer. But good luck finding any local retailer with all items stocked, or opinions from anyone else who's tried the the three systems you want to compare.

[dickiefunk]

I have now been able to try the FBT Promaxx 110a and EV ELX200-10p's. The EV's were my favourite and I actually preferred these to the both the FBT and the RCF HD10a mk5's. However, they have a loud buzzing master volume pot which was audible from FOH on some exposed keyboard parts. I have also tried a DB Technologies ES1203 column array type system which I wasn't keen on.

I'm now considering these two systems :-

RCF NX910 / 702as mk3 subs
Yamaha DXR10 mk2 / DXS12 mk2 subs

The specs for the Yamaha subs say the max spl is 134db which is 5db more than the RCF702as mk3. I'm not expecting anything near this in real world use for live music but I am wondering if it has a noticeable higher output than the RCF's?
I was already seeing the limiter light flicker on the 702as mk2 when it was turned up to around 2-3 o'clock though I know RCF set the limit light to come on earlier than a lot of other manufacturers. My old mk1 Yamaha DXR15's were really loud and I never had the limit light flicker once despite pushing them extremely hard on occasions.
Has anyone had any experience with both these systems?

[S2]

I have now been able to try the FBT Promaxx 110a and EV ELX200-10p's. The EV's were my favourite and I actually preferred these to the both the FBT and the RCF HD10a mk5's. However, they have a loud buzzing master volume pot which was audible from FOH on some exposed keyboard parts. I have also tried a DB Technologies ES1203 column array type system which I wasn't keen on.

I'm now considering these two systems :-

RCF NX910 / 702as mk3 subs
Yamaha DXR10 mk2 / DXS12 mk2 subs

The specs for the Yamaha subs say the max spl is 134db which is 5db more than the RCF702as mk3. I'm not expecting anything near this in real world use for live music but I am wondering if it has a noticeable higher output than the RCF's?
I was already seeing the limiter light flicker on the 702as mk2 when it was turned up to around 2-3 o'clock though I know RCF set the limit light to come on earlier than a lot of other manufacturers. My old mk1 Yamaha DXR15's were really loud and I never had the limit light flicker once despite pushing them extremely hard on occasions.
Has anyone had any experience with both these systems?

I can only give opinion on the RCF702 as I've just bought one a couple of weeks ago, with a pair of RCF Art 910a tops.

I previously had a Studiospares 15 inch sub which was OK but this is a huge step up in terms of quality and volume. For the band I'm in with an electric kit and bass and occ synth going through it, I have it set at around 10-11 o'clock which is fine for us (we don't play loud). The bass goes through a separate amp so the sub is just a little extra.

I looked at the Yamaha DXS12 as it was around the same ballpark in terms of price but discounted it almost immediately as it's 30kg compared to 21.5kg for the RCF which is a substantial difference.

[dickiefunk]

I have now been able to try the FBT Promaxx 110a and EV ELX200-10p's. The EV's were my favourite and I actually preferred these to the both the FBT and the RCF HD10a mk5's. However, they have a loud buzzing master volume pot which was audible from FOH on some exposed keyboard parts. I have also tried a DB Technologies ES1203 column array type system which I wasn't keen on.

I'm now considering these two systems :-

RCF NX910 / 702as mk3 subs
Yamaha DXR10 mk2 / DXS12 mk2 subs

The specs for the Yamaha subs say the max spl is 134db which is 5db more than the RCF702as mk3. I'm not expecting anything near this in real world use for live music but I am wondering if it has a noticeable higher output than the RCF's?
I was already seeing the limiter light flicker on the 702as mk2 when it was turned up to around 2-3 o'clock though I know RCF set the limit light to come on earlier than a lot of other manufacturers. My old mk1 Yamaha DXR15's were really loud and I never had the limit light flicker once despite pushing them extremely hard on occasions.
Has anyone had any experience with both these systems?

I can only give opinion on the RCF702 as I've just bought one a couple of weeks ago, with a pair of RCF Art 910a tops.

I previously had a Studiospares 15 inch sub which was OK but this is a huge step up in terms of quality and volume. For the band I'm in with an electric kit and bass and occ synth going through it, I have it set at around 10-11 o'clock which is fine for us (we don't play loud). The bass goes through a separate amp so the sub is just a little extra.

I looked at the Yamaha DXS12 as it was around the same ballpark in terms of price but discounted it almost immediately as it's 30kg compared to 21.5kg for the RCF which is a substantial difference.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences with these subs. I agree that these little subs outperform many of the cheap 15” subs that I’ve heard. They are quite surprising for their size, weight and price. What impressed me the most was how clean they sounded and without any port buzzing! I’ve tried the mk2 702’s and they exceeded my expectations from a sound perspective. My only concern is from an output perspective. I have used this sub on five occasions and mostly it has worked well. However, on one event, I found the mk2 702’s ran out of steam. Apparently the new mk3 702’s have a little more headroom and the overall sound and performance has been improved.

From what I’ve heard from a few people who have used both the RCF and Yamaha systems, the Yamaha has noticeably more output. However, as you mentioned, the DXS12 subs are around 8kg heavier. On the other hand, you can get castors for these subs and hopefully I wouldn’t need to be lifting these very often anyway.

[dickiefunk]

Thought I’d post a quick update.
I borrowed the small RCF HD10a/702as system last week for a small theatre that seats around 150 and it performed really well. It had plenty enough output and I liked the extra depth the little 702as subs gave. Also, load in and setup was a total breeze due to how small and light this system is! At no point did I feel like it was a strain or hard work!
My only slight niggle was the HD10a’s sound pretty bright and a little scooped. This can sound nice for pre recorded music but live vocals can sound a little harsh.
As a result, I’ve just picked up a pair of NX910’s and will be trying them out over the next few days. The NX910’s have a larger 1.75” voice coil for the compression driver and 2.5” for the woofer compared to the 1” and 2” in the HD10’s? Also, the amp module is higher rated at 2100w peak compared to the 800w peak in the HD10’s. Finally, the NX910’s has a wood cabinet and the crossover between the compression driver and woofer is 1.6kHz compared to 2kHz in the HD10’s. It will be very interesting to hear how much difference these factors have on the sound and performance.
If im really happy with the NX910’s I’ll probably add the mk3 version of the 702as sub. If not, I’ll get a pair of the DXR15 mk2’s. They are bigger and heavier than I’d ideally like to be carrying around but I am confident they will be able to handle all the events I do. They also offer excellent value for money!

I’ve decided against the Yamaha DXR10’s as a number of people have had buzzing vibration noises from these when running full range material through them without a sub.

[dickiefunk]

The NX910’s arrived this week and I got to try them out with a pair of 702asmk2 subs in a room with about 200 people. I was genuinely surprised at how well this tiny system filled the venue and how full range the sound was! Whilst I couldn’t do a direct a/b with the HD10’s or DXR15’s I was really struck on how fast and punchy transients sounded and how tight and clean the sound was. Any percussive sound really carried impact towards the back of the venue and vocals had more attack. I don’t remember noticing this with the HD10’s or even the DXR15’s when I used them but I’ll hopefully do an a/b in the next few days to clarify this.
The build quality is very solid and so far I am impressed with what I’ve heard. If I still like them as much after I’ve done an a/b I will probably add the 702as mk3 subs and call it a day.