Column array PA systems

[atarimad]

Hi folks,

Looking to replace my bands current active PA system. It comprises 2 Behringer 912 Neo 12" tops and a pair of Wharfedale EVP-15PB subs. We've used it successfully in small halls and venues up to 200 people. I'd like to try a column array type system as it would be smaller and lighter but not sure what I'd need to equal what I'm already using. We play anything from Oasis to Led Zeppelin.

I have a budget of up to £2K and have been looking at what's out there but not knowing a lot about these systems it's tricky trying to work out what's equivalent. The new HK polar 12 looks interesting but I'd appreciate any advice or experiences you might have with these type of systems.

TIA

[resistorman]

I'm a big proponent and user of this type of speaker, they are excellent for clean, even coverage. But I have to say they don't rock.

[atarimad]

I'm a big proponent and user of this type of speaker, they are excellent for clean, even coverage. But I have to say they don't rock.

That's what I'm afraid of. Would you say they lose out on on the bass end or is it a general comment on the sound?

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm not sure what the quality of your subs is at the moment but it might be worth considering just updating/upgrading the tops?
A pair of Yamaha DXR12s will cost about £1600 but they'll give you a lot more oomph than the Behringers and, I'll wager, a much clearer sound.
Pushing the budget, a pair of DZR10s will give another (small) step up in volume and quality. But they will be about £2200 a pair.

[atarimad]

I'm not sure what the quality of your subs is at the moment but it might be worth considering just updating/upgrading the tops?
A pair of Yamaha DXR12s will cost about £1600 but they'll give you a lot more oomph than the Behringers and, I'll wager, a much clearer sound.
Pushing the budget, a pair of DZR10s will give another (small) step up in volume and quality. But they will be about £2200 a pair.

I've been lumping the system around for quite a while now so ideally I'm looking at something easier to move around as much as anything. The system, as is, does the job so I'm not looking to update certain parts, as nice as that might be.

[MarkOne]

I'm a big proponent and user of this type of speaker, they are excellent for clean, even coverage. But I have to say they don't rock.

This is interesting, I’m hoping to find a system that can defy the laws of physics too. The DB Technologies ES1203 spec shows SPL of 132dB, which I would have thought was more than capable of rocking.

[AlecSp]

Your budget of £2k isn't really enough to get you a significant upgrade in sound/portability - unless you were to find a great used bargain. And you'll not get a suitable column rock setup for your band without spending *way* above your budget

As you've probably discovered, neither your tops nor your subs are great. They do however, make noise, and allow your band to be heard and make money.

Improved 12"/10" tops, such as Yamaha DXR/DZR or RCF ART 900 series would be a revelation in more refined sound with increased headroom - but at a price outside your stated budget, and little improvement in portability. The same with subs.

Personally, I'd spend the money and reap the performance improvement.

In this game, where you want good/light/cheap - you can never pick more than just two of the three.

These days, my regular house rig is D&B Audiotechnik Yi10p over B6, powered by 30D. Sounds exquisite, goes loud, and very portable. But around GBP 20k... Think you'd find all but one factor perfect?

[atarimad]

Your budget of £2k isn't really enough to get you a significant upgrade in sound/portability - unless you were to find a great used bargain. And you'll not get a suitable column rock setup for your band without spending *way* above your budget

As you've probably discovered, neither your tops nor your subs are great. They do however, make noise, and allow your band to be heard and make money.

Improved 12"/10" tops, such as Yamaha DXR/DZR or RCF ART 900 series would be a revelation in more refined sound with increased headroom - but at a price outside your stated budget, and little improvement in portability. The same with subs.

Personally, I'd spend the money and reap the performance improvement.

In this game, where you want good/light/cheap - you can never pick more than just two of the three.

These days, my regular house rig is D&B Audiotechnik Yi10p over B6, powered by 30D. Sounds exquisite, goes loud, and very portable. But around GBP 20k... Think you'd find all but one factor perfect?

Thanks for the reply. Very informative, what I needed and about what I suspected. Taking all that in there's no real justification in getting rid of what I have. As a full system it rarely goes out; maybe 2 or 3 times a year. For most of the small pubs we play, a pair of full-range tops is enough and the Neo's just go on the floor as monitors. In a pub environment most folk wouldn't know the difference in 2 different PA speakers so I'm not that picky about what I use. The objective is really to get something a bit lighter than I what have, that will give a similar performance, but not at any cost.

[Drew Stephenson]

In that case you could probably hire a roadie for each trip (pay a friend in beer perhaps) to help you set-up and take-down. It would take a lot of gigs before you got close to the cost of a replacement set up.

[atarimad]

In that case you could probably hire a roadie for each trip (pay a friend in beer perhaps) to help you set-up and take-down. It would take a lot of gigs before you got close to the cost of a replacement set up.

Probably the best idea. The singer normally chatting to the girls, guitarist getting just the right sound, the drummer trying to fit all his drums onto a postcard sized rug, the keyboard player trying to work out why the technology isn't working. Just leaves me the bass player to do the rest! (Only kidding).

[Wonks]

Just leaves me the bass player to do the rest! (Only kidding).

And all in the 5 minutes you turned up before the gig starts!

[ef37a]

The big advantage of 'line source' loudspeakers is their more controlled radiation pattern and extra 'throw' which helps reduce acoustic feedback but I doubt that would help much in your typical pub with a low ceiling and lot of close reflective surfaces?

Dave.

[Wonks]

The HK Polar 12 MarkOne mentioned isn't really a line array. It's dispersion pattern is roughly 90° H x 60°V, which is pretty much the same as most traditional single-box units. It is basically 4 x 4" speakers in a box, with two boxes and a sub. If you have two sets, then you can configure it so on each side you have a box above another one, so it looks more like a line array (and may well behave like one on the vertical axis), with a sub beneath, but you won't get the wider horizontal and narrower vertical sound dispersion (120° x 30°) that you'd get with the OPs suggestion of the HK Polar 12.

Of course, a wide horizontal dispersion is good in some instances and bad in others. If you've got a single unit for a singer/songwriter arrangement in a bar, then the wide dispersion helps with the room coverage.

But if you've got two units for a rock band, playing at one end of a longish narrow room, with the speakers near the side walls, then you will get a lot of reflected sound mixing with the direct sound, and resultant comb filtering messing with the sound quality. You'd need to angle the speakers in by 50°-60° to avoid this, making it a lot louder in the centre of the audience.

Sometimes a narrower horizontal pattern is of benefit.

[Wonks]

In a pub environment most folk wouldn't know the difference in 2 different PA speakers so I'm not that picky about what I use.

I find that a very strange attitude.

The punters might not know the technical differences between two different PA speakers, but they can certainly tell the difference between muffled distorted sound and clear undistorted sound. You certainly want to set a minimum standard for your sound reproduction (which is luckily a lot easier these days than it used to be).

If I went to hear a band and it was just one blurry mess, then I wouldn't see them again. At least a good PA lets you hear whether the band is any good or not and make a decision on that.

[MarkOne]

The HK Polar 12 MarkOne mentioned isn't really a line array. .

Er… do you want to borrow my reading glasses?

I was talking about the DB Technologies ES1203, not an HK product

[Wonks]

D’oh, I meant the ES1203. Reading through that thread several times I was getting them mixed up in my head, and despite knowing it wasn’t the Polar 12, that’s what I typed.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Time for a holiday... there are some bargain last minute prices on hotel accommodation on Rhodes at the moment...

[shufflebeat]

In a pub environment most folk wouldn't know the difference in 2 different PA speakers so I'm not that picky about what I use.

It’s not their job to know because they mostly don’t go poking under the bonnet of what they’re seeing/hearing. However, they often have a finely calibrated grading system of “good/meh/bad” which is difficult to reset.

I’ve just spent the weekend at a little fest where the sound on the main stage had limited decent coverage and noticed that people’s appreciation of the music correlated closely with where they were sitting, none of them take an interest in PA (and weren’t interested in the conversation - savages).

[S2]

I'm not sure what the quality of your subs is at the moment but it might be worth considering just updating/upgrading the tops?
A pair of Yamaha DXR12s will cost about £1600 but they'll give you a lot more oomph than the Behringers and, I'll wager, a much clearer sound.
Pushing the budget, a pair of DZR10s will give another (small) step up in volume and quality. But they will be about £2200 a pair.

Agreed. I looked at doing exactly the same thing but after listening to some, I decided to settle with using a conventional system.

In preference to the Yamahas (which are rather pricey for what they are) something like RCF stuff - maybe the 712s are an excellent choice and are around £900. But both will give excellent sound.

[atarimad]

The big advantage of 'line source' loudspeakers is their more controlled radiation pattern and extra 'throw' which helps reduce acoustic feedback but I doubt that would help much in your typical pub with a low ceiling and lot of close reflective surfaces?

Dave.

It was for the few 'larger' gigs I'd considered a system. A simple full-rrange setup is ehat I use fir pubs.

[AlecSp]

In preference to the Yamahas (which are rather pricey for what they are) something like RCF stuff - maybe the 712s are an excellent choice and are around £900. But both will give excellent sound.

I would argue that you're wrong saying that DZR is pricey for what it is. It's pricey, yes, but deservedly so.

Dropping down to RCF ART 712 is a perfectly reasonable choice. Worth considering the 900 series - more money, but better and (arguable) a better look. Better still are the ones with the larger compression driver, which makes a massive difference - for me, donkeys years ago, that meant the ART 722, now, 732 or 932

[S2]

In preference to the Yamahas (which are rather pricey for what they are) something like RCF stuff - maybe the 712s are an excellent choice and are around £900. But both will give excellent sound.

I would argue that you're wrong saying that DZR is pricey for what it is. It's pricey, yes, but deservedly so.

The OP has £2k for two tops and a sub. Just a pair of DZRs will blow that.

Personally I didn’t feel the Yamahas offered that much of a step up over a pair of RCFs, for what is over twice the price. I’m not denying that they are good just (IMO) not justifiably so.

[Sam Spoons]

The main thing about the Yamaha DZR's is that they go much louder than the RCF's mentioned. RCF 712's max SPL is quoted as 129dBSPL, 732 as 131dBSPL and the DZR12 is 139dBSPL. A fairer comparison for the RCFs would be Yamaha DXR12 which is about £50 cheaper than the 732 and goes 3dB louder.

[ef37a]

In preference to the Yamahas (which are rather pricey for what they are) something like RCF stuff - maybe the 712s are an excellent choice and are around £900. But both will give excellent sound.

I would argue that you're wrong saying that DZR is pricey for what it is. It's pricey, yes, but deservedly so.

The OP has £2k for two tops and a sub. Just a pair of DZRs will blow that.

Personally I didn’t feel the Yamahas offered that much of a step up over a pair of RCFs, for what is over twice the price. I’m not denying that they are good just (IMO) not justifiably so.

For over fifty years the (better) hi fi magazines talked about "The law of diminishing returns" Meaning of course that from a level of 'pretty good' you had to pay an inordinate amount of money to gain a small increase in fidelity, or in this case a relatively small increase in absolute SPL that the OP may not even need?

Then of course you are often just paying for a 'name'.

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

I'm not sure I'd say +10dB was a "relatively small increase in absolute SPL". TBF the DZR represents a little more than double the price for double the volume compared to the older RCF 712. In terms of name, I don't think the pro PA world is quite so badly affected as many marketplaces and RCF and Yamaha names carry similar prestige IMO.

If I was the OP I'd look at a couple of DXR10s and a matching sub* but, as S2 says, the equivalent RCF's will be equally suitable, and in that case the price and volume differences are fairly insignificant.

* But that's because I have experience of the DXRs and know them to be solid performers and loud enough for most pub gigs.