U47 Clone vs Sony C800g clone for rap / pop vocals

[dominic13]

Hi guys,

I’m currently using a Peluso 2247LE, and have a SM7B as a sub for the mic locker.
I usually record rap and pop vocals, and sometimes I’m wondering if I’m using the right mic.
I read a lot of great things about Stam’s C-800g clone and was wondering if that would be an upgrade for the music I usually do.
Any thoughts?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I read great thing about the Bugatti Veyron... but owning one probably wouldn't make my driving skills any better.

What's wrong with what you're getting from your current mic(s)?

[sc1460]

Yeah but if you had a Bugatti would you have a different circle of friends than you do now?

I have 2 choices for rap: Sony C100 or the Telefunken TF11, though sometimes I’ll try the Shure SM7B and that old standby the U87. Really depends on the rappers voice.

I did read in one of those heavily emotional gear space threads that in a blind shoot out with the Sony C800G, Paul Morcheeba said listeners selected the Advanced Audio CMT800 as the more pleasing sonics over the Sony…

Anyways…good point Hugh about exploiting the Peluso!

Cheers
H

[James Perrett]

Personally I'd just stick with the U87 - while it may not sound so impressive on its own, it often works better in a mix.

[Wonks]

*U47 clone, not U87

[James Perrett]

*U47 clone, not U87

The OP already has a U87 - just trying to save them a bit of money. I have a U47fet that I have compared with a valve U47 and, if I was only allowed one mic, I would still go for the U87.

[Drew Stephenson]

Not sure they do James, they've mentioned a Peluso 2247LE but it was sc1460 who first mentioned a U87.

[Arpangel]

Personally I'd just stick with the U87 - while it may not sound so impressive on its own, it often works better in a mix.

No substitute, I’m currently getting ready for my wallet to go into shock for a U87.
I thought the de rigueur set-up for Rap vocals was a U87 into an Avalon VT 747.

[James Perrett]

Not sure they do James, they've mentioned a Peluso 2247LE but it was sc1460 who first mentioned a U87.

For some reason I thought sc1460 was the OP - I need to look more carefully

[progger]

I did read in one of those heavily emotional gear space threads that in a blind shoot out with the Sony C800G, Paul Morcheeba said listeners selected the Advanced Audio CMT800 as the more pleasing sonics over the Sony…

I read that as well, and it does seem like the Advanced Audio mic (the 800 as well as the others) fare very well against more expensive competition... including, it would appear, the genuine article.

From what I recall, the Sony C100 fared very well, too. Those seem like very cool mics and relatively fairly priced. It stands to reason that one of those through a good tube preamp would come very close its bougie big brother. I'm sure there would be subtle differences in timbre but I'd bet the sound quality would be comparable (and very fun to work with). I tend to like FET mics, anyway, so if I were hunting for an affordable C800G, I'd probably go for the solid-state Sony.

Absolutely no telling whether that would be better for the OP than the Peluso, though! I'd never consider buying anything remotely as expensive as a C800G without spending some real time with one in person, certainly.

[sc1460]

There is also the Warm Audio, Stam, and Golden Age clones of the C800G. You simply cannot buy a C800G for love or money these days!

Or stick with the Peluso and pair it with a good preamp, Neve 1073, or SSL VHD etc

If you have the cash, add a good compressor eg, an LA-2A clone from Golden Age, or an SSL 611E, and you’ve got a vocal chain which will last for the next 30 years for almost any style of rap/trap/drill/RnB

Cheers
H

[Spells]

Different mics work on different voices. The only way to know which route to go is to, I'm afraid, trial as many as you can.

The ones you mention may be great for you. I'd add into the equation, the Manley stuff like the Ref-C.

[Arpangel]

Different mics work on different voices. The only way to know which route to go is to, I'm afraid, trial as many as you can.

The ones you mention may be great for you. I'd add into the equation, the Manley stuff like the Ref-C.

Very nice, Manley stuff, but would you buy it if you knew you weren’t going to get a return on your purchase, financially.
Unless you’re a very wealthy amateur, I’d only invest in equipment like this as an independent solo artist if I knew it was going to be underwritten by high sales revenue from my music.
I know we all buy expensive things sometimes, expensive "relatively" but there are certain things that go beyond that, that would only be considered if money was literally, no object.
I’d say any of the decent copies of classic mic's are more that good enough, it’s down to other things after that, I know some who hate copies of anything,
its just how they are, they have to have an original, but for most, it’s just not necessary.

[tea for two]

Were KRS-One, Nas, Talib Kweli, to spit verses thru my £15 Zingyou condenser they would still sound awesome.

Were I to try to spit verses thru the most expensive microphone known to man I'd still sound as an aardvark lol.

My humble suggestion just find that out of this world vocalist/s that spits verses that hit home. Mic is way down the list of importance in comparison.

[Spells]

Were KRS-One, Nas, Talib Kweli, to spit verses thru my £15 Zingyou condenser they would still sound awesome.

Were I to try to spit verses thru the most expensive microphone known to man I'd still sound as an aardvark lol.

My humble suggestion just find that out of this world vocalist/s that spits verses that hit home. Mic is way down the list of importance in comparison.

This may be somewhat true but mics can still make a big dif'. Nas for example, I read, struggles with vocals sitting right in mixes and so mic choice and heavy processing is often needed for his vocals.

[tea for two]

Were KRS-One, Nas, Talib Kweli, to spit verses thru my £15 Zingyou condenser they would still sound awesome.

Were I to try to spit verses thru the most expensive microphone known to man I'd still sound as an aardvark lol.

My humble suggestion just find that out of this world vocalist/s that spits verses that hit home. Mic is way down the list of importance in comparison.

This may be somewhat true but mics can still make a big dif'. Nas for example, I read, struggles with vocals sitting right in mixes and so mic choice and heavy processing is often needed for his vocals.

Were Nas as me heaven forfend lol then hardly anybody would listen to him no matter the $K mics the $K outboard $K production.
It's because Nas is Nas the reason hundreds of millions listen to him.
I suppose I was saying can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter the $K we throw at it.

[sc1460]

Totally true tea for two!

In the early days I was chuffed I could offer some great mic choices to artists, and I guess knowing I have these options may be why an artist may choose my studio..

….but over the years I learned that way more important than top end mics is atmosphere, mood, how you can get the artist to feel relaxed and on top of the world…once the artist starts singing/rapping they don’t really give two cents about the vocal chain because it’s then all about the performance…

..as an engineer you just have to have some basic level of equipment that you know how to use really well…and the artist is fine with…

Still if the artist says I want a modern vocal sound for a RnB track, I’m unlikely to pick a Neumann M149 over a U87…but if i have a Sony C100/80 I’d pick that over a U87….and if all I have is the excellent Peluso 2247, well hell that’ll do with some EQ….on a stream on Spotify neither of those 4 mics ranging from £4000 to £400 will make any difference whatsoever to the success of that song…

…ok except on some genres with heavily exposed natural vocals, like opera…but on rap and RnB? The huge production innovations in the last decade in this genre means you can decide how you want anything to sound and make it a new feature.

…sometimes I’m shaking my head when the cheapest Shure SM57 sounds so dammed punchy!!

Cheers
H

[Arpangel]

I think a lot of the time, stuff is used just because it’s there, if you’re a top artist in a nice studio, you’ll probably just use an expensive mic because you can, why use a 57 when you can use an 87, it’s a bit like saying, can we use my Mackie 1202, ditch the Neve, we don’t need it. Of course not, you’re going to use it, it’s there, and someone’s paying for it.
At home it’s a different thing, depending on who you are, but generally, most of us tend to get by with whatever is to hand.
I will say, that mic technique is a deciding factor, a mic can sound very different according to how you approach it, from being almost unusable, to being fantastic. This happened on a session here recently, inexperienced vocalist, didn’t have a clue about mic technique, but after a mic change, and a few pointers as to how to approach a mic, it was fine, his voice, was fine anyway, I’m just talking about pops, crazy level changes, and tone off-axis, these are purely technical things, but if the voice isn’t right, as TFT says, you’re a bit stuffed.

[sc1460]

Yeah agree, if I’ve paid for Blackbird in Nashville I’m going to be a bit miffed if they mic up my kit with SM57s!

The in-demand vocal chain seems to be the Sony C800G + 1073 Neve + tube tech CL 1B compr….2 of which are not stocked anywhere….it’s crazy, because by the time you’re listening to the massive amount of FX on the vocals of The Weeknd, or Beyoncé, or SZA, if they’d used the OPs Peluso with a GA1073 with a Warm LA2A, you’re not going to hear a damned difference on the final Spotify stream…maybe an acoustic trio recorded in a nice hall with hardly any FX, yes ok…

….though I love SOS, it does contribute hugely to the worship of hi-end gear…but we engineers also lust for the unobtainable…
Cheers
H

[Drew Stephenson]

….though I love SOS, it does contribute hugely to the worship of hi-end gear…but we engineers also lust for the unobtainable…
Cheers
H

It does, and we do!
I have long accepted that the weakest parts of my recording/monitoring chain are the source (my performance) and the destination (my ears).
This is as true now as it was when I was using a cheap dynamic into a four-track and listening on some £20 headphones.
But I do like my studio and all my toys.

[MarkOne]

I've long wondered about mics and above a certain price point, does confirmation bias start to come into things?

Now, back at Christmas I picked up an Aston Element for peanuts at the local CEX store.

It was an impulse buy because of the too good to pass up price, but I was more than a bit impressed by how good it is once I started using it.

But reading up on the development of the mic I found out a big part of the methodology was to blind test the mic on panels of producers musicians and engineers

With the final voicing decided by public vote, with more than 4000 early adopters participating in a series of blind listening tests of Element prototypes against other brands’ leading models.

Now this is a £150 mic that was put up against much more expensive brands and models, and only when the consensus was that it was better did they settle on the final voicing.

I just wonder if the people involved in the process had known what they were comparing it to if the results would have been very different?

I also wonder if a £10,000 mic is really all that better than a £1000 one or even a £500 one. I mean, really better, or is the glamour just a part of it?

[James Perrett]

I also wonder if a £10,000 mic is really all that better than a £1000 one or even a £500 one. I mean, really better, or is the glamour just a part of it?

I was thinking that I've never used a £10,000 mic and then I checked the price of the most expensive mic I've ever used and found people asking $30,000 for them. Was it worth it? For me, no it wasn't. I could achieve the same sound with a cheaper mic and a bit of eq.

However, the cheaper mic would still cost £3,000 if you wanted to buy it new, although it cost me nowhere near that when I bought it 25 years ago. And that's the thing - mics in the two to three thousand pound range will probably last a lifetime, if not longer and keep their value. A £150 mic will probably be consigned to the scrapheap in a few years whereas an expensive mic from a reputable manufacturer is worth repairing.

[sonics]

I could achieve the same sound with a cheaper mic and a bit of eq.

This, and yes, the cost of the cheaper mic is important. It's simply not possible to manufacture a top-quality mic and bring it to market at much under $1000 IMO. If you want it robust and reliable, that is. Another $1000 or two will refine it (with diminishing returns), or pay for extra capsules, tubes (sorry, valves...), fancy casings etc.

But sound different they do. Whether that sound difference is worth it depends on the usual factors of course.

If you're looking for a "magic" combination with analog preamp and compressor then be prepared to spend many thousands...and have a rig that will not work in all situations, and may in fact work well in only a few! I simply do not believe that's required at all to create great recordings, but then I'm not a believer in "mojo" at all! "Vintage vibe" is for non-engineers!

[tea for two]

Our dear Zuke Zukan was right there in the 80's producing some of the Greats of HipHop cooking up beats.

Rakim is considered one of the Greats of HipHop.
Rakim made HipHop be taken seriously as an art form. He changed the style of rapping from what went before, birthing a new form of the Flow which influenced several major HipHop artists.
Rakim in 1987 spitting cold cold bars.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2TN-kDEKx ... am9rZSA%3D
If Rakim wasn't Rakim then this doesn't happen.
Even on a £15 mic £25 preamp Rakim would sound as Rakim.

I can wholeheartedly say were I trying to spit bars on a U87 into a Manley people would turn off the radio lol.

::

We've had a similar discussion on the Classical recording thread.
As long as the performer performance is was stellar and the room / environment not sounding like coming out of a traffic cone
then the mic, mic pre is lesser consideration.

::

Note HipHop is very different from "gangsta rap"
HipHop on the whole deals with social issues, Women's rights, spiritual enlightenment.

"Gangsta rap" foisted upon the public by record companies.

I only got into HipHop mid 00 around 2005 with Tupac.

[Arpangel]

I’m thinking of buying that Warm Audio 47, why?
Because I’m a cheapskate, but, it’s not exactly cheap, it would be considered quite expensive by some people.
I could stretch to a Neumann 47, but my instinct tells me it’s just not worth it, given my situation, music, and voice.
I just need something nice, that looks good, and does the job, plus, a friend has one and really likes it, so that’s good enough.