Volume Levels for Electric instruments.

[Crash006]

Hey All,

I am not sure if there is a correct answer for this situation or not.

I have been struggling with my drummer constantly running his monitor mix (using headphones not a monitor) extremely hot. He is doing this because he is having issues hearing himself and others. Also, he notes that without much eq the “feel” of the bass and floor toms is gone. I can fix this if I up the lows on the eq but this affects everyone else as well. If I look at his mix, which he controls through his phone, most of faders that he uses are above 0db including the master. Some of other instruments are the same way.

Roland TD-4 drums
Yamaha TF3
Rolls RA62C (headphone amp)

Td-4 volume is run between 2-3 o’o’clock.
TF-3 gain is at 30db, digital gain at 0.
Rolls volume control can’t get about 2 without it hissing in the drummers ears.

He noted that when I turned up the Rolls it definitely gets better but hiss is unusable.

How do we eliminate this hiss? To me the issues are occurring because the source volume is to high along with to much boost at the board.

For electronic instruments like keyboards, drums, electric guitars, and bass is there a standard practice for setting their source volume.

Also when are you supposed to use digital gain?

[James Perrett]

You need to track down why the Rolls is hissing. Does it hiss with nothing connected to the input? Could you try a different headphone amp? What headphones is he using?

On the rare occasions where I've drummed to a track through headphones I like to have one ear half off so that I can hear the real acoustic sound of the drums. I find that it is impossible to hear all the nuances of a drumkit through headphones.

[Wonks]

Not many acoustic nuances from a TD-4 electronic drum kit, James.

[Drew Stephenson]

Sounds like the rest of the band might benefit from turning down. If you're not having to run over the top of an acoustic drum kit there's really no reason to be playing loud.

[Crash006]

So I was just at our church and tested by increasing the volume on another output on the Rolls and it was fine with no hiss. This put the test port at the hiss point of the drums and the gain being about par as the drums in the board.

I am wondering if it’s the output on the Td-4 drums is bad. They are old and the output has been hit to the point we are using the R and not the L/mono.

Thoughts with the new information?

[Wonks]

Bollocks

[Wonks]

…Commenting on the site performance

[Arpangel]

I have been struggling with my drummer constantly running his monitor mix (using headphones not a monitor) extremely hot. He is doing this because he is having issues hearing himself and others.

If he’s been monitoring through phones at a high level for a few years they’ll come a time when he won’t be able to hear anything at all.
Regarding monitor mixes, and EQ, having an EQ patched in on individual sends can be very useful in circumstances like this, we used to have a few cheap graphics on hand for this.

[AlecSp]

Regarding monitor mixes, and EQ, having an EQ patched in on individual sends can be very useful in circumstances like this, we used to have a few cheap graphics on hand for this.

They're built-in on TF, like most digital mixers.

I was wondering why the OP wasn't using this?

[Arpangel]

Regarding monitor mixes, and EQ, having an EQ patched in on individual sends can be very useful in circumstances like this, we used to have a few cheap graphics on hand for this.

They're built-in on TF, like most digital mixers.

I was wondering why the OP wasn't using this?

Yes, nice mixer, should have all that I should imagine.

[MarkOne]

Is the drummer using his own dedicated monitor mic?
What headphones is he using?

I do find it hard to understand why he can’t hear himself.

[Crash006]

From what I know of the Yamaha TF-3 we can’t patch an eq to individual aux send. It’s very limited, mainly volumes for all inputs and you can create groups which allows one touch volume control for all in that group.

I can adjust just his aux’s eq but it would eq the output as a whole so any lows that I boost would be boosted for all inputs going to his headset.

As for the headset it would be a middle of the road audio-technica. We replaced with a brand new model of the same quality by audio-technica and it was the same.

So I guess my questions still remain, is there a standard for the source volume control for an electric instrument? Should it be left lower and the gain used on the board? And when should digital gain be used?

[Drew Stephenson]

So I guess my questions still remain, is there a standard for the source volume control for an electric instrument? Should it be left lower and the gain used on the board? And when should digital gain be used?

This side of things is relatively straightfoward. Set your fader to zero, look at the peak indicators for that channel, get your source signal up to your preferred operating level*, and adjust your input gain until your levels are in the right place.
Having a quick scan at the manual suggests that the 'right place' will be with the peak -20 light coming on during the loud bits.
Do that for all your inputs and then set your mix using the faders.

* See my comment above about everyone else turning down.

[Wonks]

If you are using the right output, then you are probably only getting half the output signal. I don't know how the drums are panned within the unit, but any drums panned hard left won't be heard, and any drums panned mainly left will also be very weak.

I can't find a circuit diagram or service manual for the TD-4, but on the later TD-3, which has the same L/Mono and R outputs, there's no left channel feed into the right channel, and inserting a jack into the right output breaks the feed from the right output into the left/mono output.

So you'll only get drums panned hard right at full volume. Any panned centrally, like the kick should be, will be at 1/2 volume, and if the snare is panned slightly left, then it will be even quieter, and the hi-hat probably almost non-existent.

So I'd first go and check the panning of the drums within the TD-4 unit. If you want a good full signal in mono, they'll all have to be panned hard right.

If they aren't, that is probably the source of the problem, and 5 minutes setting the kit used to hard right panning should, if not 100% fix it, it should improve things a lot. We can then take it from there.

Ideally, you'd get the TD-4 module looked at, and get that Left channel output fixed. It's probably the jack socket, which might need a new socket, or it could simply be a dry or cracked solder joint. Re-flow the solder joints on both sockets if you can, and see if that fixes the socket problem.

If not, it's probably just as cost-effective to seek a used drum module as a replacement. I can see a used TD-4 module currently for sale here in the UK for around £75/($100). I'm sure the drummer will benefit from hearing a stereo mix of the drums in their headphones.

I'll also ask you if you could check the exact make/model of the headphones the drummer uses. The Rolls puts out a reasonable level of power (up to 972mW per channel) into 32 ohms, but if the drummer is using headphones with a low sensitivity and high ohm value coils e.g. 600 ohms, then you are going to have to turn the Roll's output up to quite a high level.

[Crash006]

I can confirm all ports on the rolls do this hiss/buzz but the monitors/mains do not

[shufflebeat]

Has the drummer ever experimented with an arse-kicker drum-throne?

[resistorman]

Has the drummer ever experimented with an arse-kicker drum-throne?

I was just going to mention this, it's a fantastic solution.

ButtKicker is the pro model, but they're also popular in gaming circles.

[Arpangel]

I really did read that as "arse-licker throne"

[shufflebeat]

I really did read that as "arse-licker throne"

That would take his/her mind off the problem, to be fair.

Possible design brief on the way.

[Arpangel]

I really did read that as "arse-licker throne"

That would take his/her mind off the problem, to be fair.

Possible design brief on the way.

This is leading me to think about powered thrones, to assist drummers in advanced manoeuvres.

[Sam Spoons]

I really did read that as "arse-licker throne"

That would take his/her mind off the problem, to be fair.

Possible design brief on the way.

This is leading me to think about powered thrones, to assist drummers in advanced manoeuvres.

Ultimately to evolve into Dalek drummers?

[shufflebeat]

I really did read that as "arse-licker throne"

That would take his/her mind off the problem, to be fair.

Possible design brief on the way.

This is leading me to think about powered thrones, to assist drummers in advanced manoeuvres.

Ultimately to evolve into Dalek drummers?

I think that ship may have sailed.

[Wonks]

I can confirm all ports on the rolls do this hiss/buzz but the monitors/mains do not

But is the Rolls making the hiss or amplifying noise coming from the Yamaha output? Have you tried it with a shorted input?

And have you checked the TD-4 drum panning yet?

[Philbo King]

Give him a powered (active) stage wedge pointed directly at him. Maybe 2. One by the floor tom, one by the high hat. Probably it's a good time to have him start saving up for a hearing aid...

If his TD-4 set really has a dead left/mono output, have him pan everything hard right in the drum patch settings so he (and the PA) gets full output level. That is a *really* old drum brain; the current Roland model is TD-27.