Amp head/cab for home recording suggestions - thank you!

[Sam Spoons]

I'm a confirmed valve amp nut, I have, have had, and have used all manner of kit, digital, analogue, valve, solid state, hybrid and anything else you can name over nearly 60 years of playing guitar and my fave rig ever is my P90 Strat, a hand built 18 watt 1 x 12 combo and a few pedals. I can't get 'any sound' out of that but it does 'my sound' perfectly. I also have a Boss Katana 50 combo and a Headrush digital fx unit which get's the job done just fine but just lacks an indefinable 'something' that the analogue/valve rig seems to have.

[ef37a]

"digital fx unit which get's the job done just fine but just lacks an indefinable 'something' that the analogue/valve rig seems to have."

Quite so Sam and if we could bottle that and sell it to the coders we'd both be
miyonares this time next year!

But then, valves have had well over 50 years to get the sound we know and love. Give the modelling peeps another 20 and they will surely be there?
I hope so because I cannot see valve amps being around then except those bought by the very well heeled and they will probably have to buy a 1000 trees to offset the Carbon!

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

IME solid state and digital excel at clean cleans and saturated distortions but fail at those just on the edge sounds we all love so much. It could just be me not setting the kit up well enough but why bother when I get what I like with my simple set up and no fuss...

[Wonks]

But then, valves have had well over 50 years to get the sound we know and love.

Well over 70 years! Most of the amp sounds we love were 'designed' (but generally assembled from existing valve designs) between 1948 and 1965 for Fender style-amps. Marshall between 1962 and 1981 for the JCM800). Mesa between 1972 and the early 80s. Vox between 1958 and 1960.

After that it's been small updates to those sounds and adding features like more gain, effects loops and extra channels.

But most modern boutique amps are based on those old models, maybe tweaked for lower hum or a more versatile EQ.

[ef37a]

But then, valves have had well over 50 years to get the sound we know and love.

Well over 70 years! Most of the amp sounds we love were 'designed' (but generally assembled from existing valve designs) between 1948 and 1965 for Fender style-amps. Marshall between 1962 and 1981 for the JCM800). Mesa between 1972 and the early 80s. Vox between 1958 and 1960.

After that it's been small updates to those sounds and adding features like more gain, effects loops and extra channels.

But most modern boutique amps are based on those old models, maybe tweaked for lower hum or a more versatile EQ.

Well, I said "WELL over 50yrs" because until 1960 they did not have anything (bad!) to compare them with because that is the year RCA brought out the 2N3055 power transistor and I doubt there was much serious sstate PA until then? Yes I had a CTH 100W 100V line amp with ten 0C26 transistors in it but that was a bit rare.

Then again the bands of those days probably did not give a monkey's WHOSE amps they used? Shads and Beatles et all just plugged (everybody!) into whatever they could get or were given. Long as it was loud!

I don't think the present precious, cork sniffing "tone seekers" came about until about 20 years ago? They have certainly become very vocal since the invention of the internet!

Dave.

[Wonks]

You can't really make a statement about valve amps and suddenly branch off into solid state PA developments!

[ef37a]

You can't really make a statement about valve amps and suddenly branch off into solid state PA developments!

Yes I can! That, IMHO is when the 'valve snobbery' began! As I said, Beatles and Co had no choice at the start, it was only when sstate became common that people could tell the difference..THEN they started elevating certain valve amps and demonizing others. As you quite rightly point out.Almost all valve amps were copies of copies of Fenders which were effectively lifted straight out of valve data books. The copiers even copied the mistakes! The 82k/100k anode load diffs for PIs for instance. Not that it would have made much difference if they had got it right!

There are only SO many ways you can make a valve OP stage.

Dave.

[Philbo King]

Here's a bit of an off-the-wall suggestion. Fender Rumble 40. I recently bought one direct from Fender on sale for $150. It is billed as a bass amp, but works great as a guitar amp if you dial the bass control to zero. It has several overdrive options that all sound great. Very tube-like for a solid state amp. Highly recommended if you don't want amp/cab simulation and FX like reverb, delay and flanging built in. Oh yeah, and it weighs around 8 lbs!

[amanise]

One thing I don't think has been asked yet - is there anyone in particular you admire that you want to sound like? Or do you want to be able to cross genres at will and have as much scope over what you play as possible?

[John Egan]

Hi,
I know fron personal experience that the early 60s tranny amps were not up to the job, so valves were the only option. No cork sniffing required back then.
Regards, John

[Rosco99]

Thanks for all the continued advise and help.
I'm aiming for an dark ish retro indie pop vibe ala killers, doves, white lies, joy division.
The guitar to be fair is a feature so in answer to the other question going back - I fully appreciate its a compromise working from home so perhaps a bit naive of me to say that the only sounds ive been happy with have been in a studio as the point is that isn't completely attainable in my situation so i have to compromise.
I wasn't dismissing anything - Maybe i need to revisit software ems but i just struggled last time i had a bit of motivation and time.
Probably a stereotypical indie sound mid driven Fender Twin or AC30 would ideally do the trick but both too loud and combos (given i was thinking about separates).
Even wondered about an in line attenuator for a valve amp - some folks have suggested things in that domain.
Sorry if this is going around the houses - again i appreciate all the advise.

[Music Wolf]

In summary

Your primary aim is recording at home on your own. so not live, no in house engineer, no treated rooms (either to enhance the acoustics nor attenuate noise).

You don't already own an amp and are unsure as to the exact amplifier that you want (Fender Twin / AC30?).

A Kemper would fit the bill perfectly. You won't get feedback, or that 'amp-in-the-room' feel, but then neither will you with an iso cab or heavily attenuated amp. What you will get is access to countless, very desirable, amplifiers that will be indistinguishable from the real thing on a recording. I've had mine for about 8 years now and, if it ever stops working, I'll replace it without hesitation.

About a year ago, quite by chance, I acquired a beautiful vintage Fender amp (a 1972 Pro Reverb). The sound in the room was unbelievable. I took it to one rehearsal each with the two bands that I was in at the time, and it performed superbly on both occasions. After that it sat in the corner of my home studio and serverd as a laptop stand until I sold it a couple of months ago. I found a Pro Reverb profile for the Kemper and I use that quite happily in the studio (and I have Fender type models in my Helix for live).

Despite having a dedicated studio room, and living in a detached house, a real amp just isn't a viable option for me due to volume constraints. I don't want to be fitting my recording activities around the family / neighbours being out, and I don't want to spend more time setting up than I do recording. When I get the urge to work on a song then it's just a case of firing up the Kemper, picking an amp (for 95% of the time I use one of only three profiles) and hitting the record button. I quite often practice early in the mornings, whilst the family are still in bed, using headphones

[Essex Boi]

There's a lot of wisdom and knowledge already shared by others, so I doubt I have much to add. My set up is driven by circumstances. Although I don't have neighbors to worry about and I'm blessed with a very tolerant partner, I'm confined to one relatively small room for my musical experiments. Consequently, I don't have the space to leave my amps (strictly speaking the speakers, not the amps of course) mic'd up. Instead, I have a couple of Two Notes Torpedoes permanently plumbed in that attenuate and provide a DI. Add in my preferred IRs and I can achieve results I find almost indistinguishable to a mic in front of the cab. I say almost because I've yet to find an acceptable IR of my preferred speaker and mic combination. I know I could create my own IR but I cannot see the point when I cannot hear the difference in the mix.

As a safety measure I also take a DI straight from the guitar, which gives me the option to re-amp (or use a modelling amp, or whatever) on those occasions when my performance is OK but I subsequently change my mind about the sound.

That brings me on to three factors that seem to be often overlooked in discussions about amps - speaker choice, cab size and mic selection. I find these are as important as the amp in shaping the sound. V30, Greenback, Crescendo or EVM12L? 1x12, 2x12, 4x10 or 4x12? Even miking a single speaker, the cab colours the sound. SM57, 121 U87, or m160? Where to place it? Maybe try two mics? Endless variations.

So much to think about, when all I want to do is record some guitar noises!

[ef37a]

There's a lot of wisdom and knowledge already shared by others, so I doubt I have much to add. My set up is driven by circumstances. Although I don't have neighbors to worry about and I'm blessed with a very tolerant partner, I'm confined to one relatively small room for my musical experiments. Consequently, I don't have the space to leave my amps (strictly speaking the speakers, not the amps of course) mic'd up. Instead, I have a couple of Two Notes Torpedoes permanently plumbed in that attenuate and provide a DI. Add in my preferred IRs and I can achieve results I find almost indistinguishable to a mic in front of the cab. I say almost because I've yet to find an acceptable IR of my preferred speaker and mic combination. I know I could create my own IR but I cannot see the point when I cannot hear the difference in the mix.

As a safety measure I also take a DI straight from the guitar, which gives me the option to re-amp (or use a modelling amp, or whatever) on those occasions when my performance is OK but I subsequently change my mind about the sound.

That brings me on to three factors that seem to be often overlooked in discussions about amps - speaker choice, cab size and mic selection. I find these are as important as the amp in shaping the sound. V30, Greenback, Crescendo or EVM12L? 1x12, 2x12, 4x10 or 4x12? Even miking a single speaker, the cab colours the sound. SM57, 121 U87, or m160? Where to place it? Maybe try two mics? Endless variations.

So much to think about, when all I want to do is record some guitar noises!

Yes indeed, the speaker is at least as important as the amplifier. When we read of "night and day" differences between different marks of Marshalls or Boogies they are never being compared with the same speaker or cab in the same room with the same microphone or even on the same continent!
Same goes for all the BS speak around "cryo" and other specialist valves. Yes, many modern valves are not as tough as the originals but I am yet to see a valid test of their sonic differences?

Attenuators. It must be remembered that they will change the overall sound if only because they will change the damping on the voice coil. Guitar amps can have an output Z between 10 Ohms at the lowest to over 50 Ohms, a 'power soak' as I prefer to call them will lower that last figure substantially.

The other problem is sheer volume. Not 100dB+ window shattering but as Wonks mentioned, you need a decent level to 'get the juices flowing'! Son and I some years ago reckoned that was around 90dBC in a small room and that can be a bit anti-social.

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

I record the amp I like with a single close mic in the same place and the recording comes close enough to the sound I hear in the room for me. I don't agonise over whether an SM57 would be better than my MXL Cube or if I need a greenback in place of the V30 in the combo, most of what makes me sound like me sound is in my fingers anyway.

However, I do have exceedingly low standards so it's probably not wise to take much notice of what I say I'm a guitar player and retired live sound guy not a studio guy so simple suits me and I lack the patience and perseverance to pursue the minutia though I have huge respect for those that do (i.e. most of the forum...).

[ef37a]

K.I.S.Sir. Eh' Sam? As good a philosophy as any!

Dave.

[Rosco99]

Yes, its a minefield of considerations.
I appreciate in the last 24 hours i probably can't realistically see myself micing up in my lounge on and off etc even if the volume is better contained or reduced (as much as id like too!)
A Kemper or device like an Ox is going to have to do it so im edging closer!
I obviously appreciate technically the pros and cons of each avenue there.
I'd prefer a separate unit than using sims inside the computer to combat workflow considerations with latency.

I really appreciate all the thoughts, logic and continued help.

[djangodeadman]

Quilter Superblock US or UK (or one of each) and a suitable cab. They sound good at low volume and have speaker emulated DI outputs, should you ever wish to record silently. They’ll also fit on your pedalboard.

[BigRedX]

I'd prefer a separate unit than using sims inside the computer to combat workflow considerations with latency.

I don't know if the other hardware modelling units do this, but one of the big pluses of the Line6 Helix for me is the ability to record both the processed and unprocessed guitar sound simultaneously. That way I get a "performance" where my playing reacts to the sound I am using, but where the actual sound itself can be tweaked later in the production process using the Helix Native plug-in on the unprocessed track.

[Essex Boi]

Attenuators. It must be remembered that they will change the overall sound if only because they will change the damping on the voice coil. Guitar amps can have an output Z between 10 Ohms at the lowest to over 50 Ohms, a 'power soak' as I prefer to call them will lower that last figure substantially.

You're absolutely right. I do not bother putting up a mic; without changing a single thing on the amp the sound from the speaker is completely different when it's attenuated. I record the DI from the Torpedo and add an IR in Logic. The speaker lets me hear what I'm doing and gives me a bit of the interaction between guitar and rig that I find so important. It suppose it also avoids the potential issue of latency when monitoring in Logic.

[Music Wolf]

I'd prefer a separate unit than using sims inside the computer to combat workflow considerations with latency.

I don't know if the other hardware modelling units do this, but one of the big pluses of the Line6 Helix for me is the ability to record both the processed and unprocessed guitar sound simultaneously. That way I get a "performance" where my playing reacts to the sound I am using, but where the actual sound itself can be tweaked later in the production process using the Helix Native plug-in on the unprocessed track.

I usually record the output of the Kemper plus the DI out (there's a DI out on the back of the Kemper). The DI is just the unprocessed guitar. No amp profiles or effects.

[Sam Spoons]

I'd prefer a separate unit than using sims inside the computer to combat workflow considerations with latency.

I don't know if the other hardware modelling units do this, but one of the big pluses of the Line6 Helix for me is the ability to record both the processed and unprocessed guitar sound simultaneously. That way I get a "performance" where my playing reacts to the sound I am using, but where the actual sound itself can be tweaked later in the production process using the Helix Native plug-in on the unprocessed track.

IIRC my Headrush Gigboard can record both clean and effected sounds simultaneously when connected to the studio MacPro over USB. It's a decent bit of kit and much cheaper than a full on Helix or Kempler. Or consider a Boss Katana 50, very versatile and good sounding little amp, cheap too, I bought my mk1 from a mate for £135.

[BigRedX]

For me the important bit isn't that you can record a direct sound at the same time as the processed one - there have always been ways of doing this, but that I can then EXACTLY replicate the sound I was getting from the Helix using the Helix Native plug-in, and then tweak that "in the box" as the mix demands.

Do any of the other modelling systems offer an exact plug-in replica of their hardware?

[Dave.P]

There is no exact answer to the original question I guess and a million different exacting reasons why every solution is correct from each reply from each poster.

The biggest issue is what you want and what do you hear in your head. From there finding something that matches your way of working and meets your need is the big challenge.

I suspect the Kemper/Headrush/Line 6 etc is worth thinking about as this offers a lot if not all of these solutions in as versatile a way as possible. You can even mic up a FFFR cab if that helps too. It really depends how deep you want to go.

Have been through a journey here too with many valve amps and low output ones too with the 1 watt option plus external cabs and Torpedo Capture units. The choices and expense are endless of course. After much experimenting, these units did not work very well for me and probably need to go up for sale as just gathering dust these days despite looking very cool.

Where I ended up myself is with a Tone Master Deluxe Reverb and a Boss GT1000 unit as wells a Tonerush FFFR speaker. With this kit I can get all the sounds I personally need and can record and gig as much as I need. Works for what I need....

So easy to tie yourself up in knots and most people who actually hear your music will not care as much as you do about the process!

[rggillespie]

Dan and Mick on 'that pedal show' have done some programmes on getting good tone at bedroom volumes with both amp and digital hardware. Well worth seeing how they go about it. I'm still in the small amp camp (Fender silver face vibrochamp) rather than digital hardware, but its interesting to read how everyone is finding different solutions to the volume issue.