Too much drums in the Overheads

[CochraneDrumTutor]

Hi
So I’ve just ran some initial tests on my new mics / mixing set up on my 6 piece acoustic drum kit. (Zoom L20 mixer. Audix mics, one mic per drum plus twin Audix ADX51s for overheads about 7ft off the ground (limited by a low ceiling!)) and as a newbie to the “sound engineering” side of things I’m noticing the following issue, and wondered if you had any suggestions please?

I’m really happy with the audio quality I’m getting into my DAW, and the overheads are doing a great job of capturing the cymbals / hats, BUT they are also capturing a LOT of the drums! I like the overall “rich round sound” they give me but I’d like to be able to lessen the level of drums they are picking up in relation to the cymbals.

I’ve mocked up a couple of EQ filters (one for the overheads, one for all the drums) which cuts out some of the unwanted frequencies of the drums but it leaves me with a “tinny” residual drum sound coming from the overheads, and I don’t know if that is to be expected when you are high pass filtering them?? And would it even matter when combined with the feeds from the individual higher volume drum mic feeds?

Is this the way to go? Or are there other more effective routes to try here?

Many thanks in advance!

[resistorman]

Personally, I like to use overheads for a large part of my sound and often just use kick and snare discrete mics. That is dependent on room acoustics and the player of course. There's no real way to keep the kit out of the overheads, so you might as well work it in

[Sam Spoons]

One of the best recorded drum kit sounds I've achieved was with a single overhead and a kick mic. It was a live recording and I had 8 tracks which precluded the use of stereo overheads. Even the notoriously hard to please drummer was impressed.

[Hugh Robjohns]

... BUT they are also capturing a LOT of the drums! I like the overall “rich round sound” they give me but I’d like to be able to lessen the level of drums they are picking up in relation to the cymbals.

You've got five options:

1. Don't hit the drums as hard

2. Use fig-8 pattern mics oriented to reject the drums and ceiling reflections.

3. Apply severe high-pass filtering to the overheads to reduce drum spill.

4. Embrace reality and physics and work with what the overheads give you.

5. Talk nicely to your fairy godmother and ask for more wishes...



Remember, the 'drum sound' is the mix of everything together, and the sound of individual mics doesn't matter. If you need to make the overheads sound tinny in isolation, who cares as long as you gain the balance control you seek and the overall sound is good.

Different music genres need different approaches. For some styles I'd start with full overheads as the overall sound and add close drum mikes as necessary to fill things out. For other genre it might be mostly close mics with a hint of high-passed overheads for cymbal splashes/rides.

[tea for two]

One of the best recorded drum kit sounds I've achieved was with a single overhead and a kick mic. It was a live recording and I had 8 tracks which precluded the use of stereo overheads. Even the notoriously hard to please drummer was impressed.

I'm so glad you chimed in with this.
I was going to suggest same then thought what do I know.
For me the lesser the amount of mics the more focused sound, also ofcourse likely lesser phase issues, easier to mix into an instrumental, song.

[Wonks]

As I see it there are two basic schools of drum recording.

One is where you use the overheads as the main drum sound and you use spot mics to fill in any weaknesses in the drum sound. Just because you have lots of drum mics, doesn’t mean you have you use them all in this situation. The more mics you have, the more bleed and phase issues you encounter.

The other where everything is close-miked and the overheads are heavily high-passed so they mainly highlight the cymbals. But you’ll probably want a mic for the hi-hats and another for the bottom of the snare if you go this route.

There’s nothing to stop you miking everything up and going down the first route, but only using the mics that add something to the sound, not because they are there.

But a lot of the recorded sound will come from the room, especially with the overheads If it’s too small or the ceiling is too low, then the sound will always be sub-optimal and you might be better off with an electronic kit triggering samples.

[CochraneDrumTutor]

Many thanks to ALL! Great advice.

I'd not really thought much about seeing the overheads as the "main" sound source but it makes good sense, especially based on the the richness of the overall "kit sound" its producing.

[Sam Spoons]

If you're looking for a 'natural' drum sound (as I usually am) the overheads are the starting point. For heavier rock styles then close miking with the, heavily HPFed, O/Hs adding a bit of sparkle is usually the way to go. There are obviously exceptions.

[DC-Choppah]

What I do is

Use a mono mic to capture the whole kit from the front. This is the main kit mic.

Use a mic on each drum.

Use stereo overhead mics as a coincident pair for cymbals. When mixing this cymbal track, I make a patch that ducks the low frequencies momentarily when any drum is hit by using the drum mics as a key. This will remove the drums from the ‘cymbal’ track.

[resistorman]

What I do is

Use a mono mic to capture the whole kit from the front. This is the main kit mic.

Use a mic on each drum.

Use stereo overhead mics as a coincident pair for cymbals. When mixing this cymbal track, I make a patch that ducks the low frequencies momentarily when any drum is hit by using the drum mics as a key. This will remove the drums from the ‘cymbal’ track.

That's an interesting method, bet it sounds good!

[DC-Choppah]

It's cool to be able to put a different reverb on just the cymbals - bright, long spacious tails, sparkly.... without having the other drums in there.

That extra reverb on the 'cymbal-only' track also extends over the gaps where the drums had keyed the high pass filter and so conceals those gaps too.

This lets you get this kind of sound from one of my reference tracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CszDlZiYhss

Notice how the cymbals get their own reverb that is not on the toms. And the snare gets his own unique reverb too.

It's like bright spacious cymbals, tight toms and bass drum, and happy snare drum in its own special room. And one guy played this all at once!! Ricky Lawson from Detroit!

[MarkOne]

I was amazed (though I shouldn’t really be) when I saw a studio track list for Fragile by Yes. Only two tracks allocated to Bill Bruford’s drums on the 8 tracks available. (though I have no idea how many desk channels and mics were involved in the initial tracking)

[tea for two]

For those feeling adventurous :
Neil Peart
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/147774431495202206/
Not enuff cowbell.

Freddie Gruber drum tutor to Neil Peart
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iomrYZ_AA ... cnViZXI%3D

[DC-Choppah]

Mr Peart's drums sound great. Lots of fun to listen to!

He writes books too!

[tea for two]

It's cool to be able to put a different reverb on just the cymbals - bright, long spacious tails, sparkly.... without having the other drums in there.

This lets you get this kind of sound from one of my reference tracks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CszDlZiYhss

I dig this style in the vein of David Sanborn, Grover Washington Jnr.
I also dig its reverby spacey cymbals : one of my favourite drum kit sounds, from when I first heard The Bounty End theme by Vangelis, released 1984.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7piGHeUUS ... aGVtZSA%3D

Although on the piece you linked Im not a fan of the Rimshot thereafter Snare. For me they are too hard for such a piece, to me they'd suit out and out Funk.

Van Morrison's Spanish Steps the Brushed Snare is just right. If it had a hard Rimshot, hard Snare would sound inappropriate.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf_LWHBYE ... ggc3RlcHMg

::

Sometimes I reverby the Snare to soften push it back within the mix, after Eqing the Snare.
Sometimes I will altogether ommit Rimshot, ommit Snare if they just don't fit the piece.

[DC-Choppah]

Oh man I forgot how steeped in Jazz the Van Morrison group was. Great sax playing there by Mr. Morrison himself.

I also really do like the way Sanborn's stuff was produced, and I think that the way they had each instrument in its own reverb, and parts of the kit in their own reverb gives it a magical quality that I don't hear much anymore.

I used to audition high end stereos that folks wanted me to check out and I would play Sanborn stuff to listen for all the details in the individual piece reverbs. Good systems made it very easy to hear that each piece was in its own space. I could tell right away what I was dealing with.

[DC-Choppah]

BTW The link I posted above for the Yellow Jackets tune Daddy's Gonna Miss You is actually Marc Russo on sax (Doobie Brothers), although he was probably listening to a lot of Sanborn too!