Focal Solo6 ST6 and Neumann KH120ii.

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I’m still trying to decide on what to do with my monitoring setup in my studio. I will be using these for mixing and production.
I currently have the Neumann KH120’s and an Eve TS108 sub. For critical mixing I just use the KH120’s without the sub and headphones. The sub mainly gets used when playing bass guitar and e-drums at a fairly high volume. The size and shape of my room and desk doesn’t allow me to place the sub in an optimal position and because of this, I’m not sure a sub will work in my room for mixing. I have considered the Neumann KH750 but I would still be limited as to where I can place it for best results even when using the MA1 system. Also, because of the position of my sub, it is very awkward to crouch down and power it on and off as the space is very cramped. I think this would become quite tiresome having to do this on a daily basis and sometimes more than once a day! The Eve TS108 has an excellent remote control which gives you 100% control of all the features of the sub including powering it on and off!

As a result I’m thinking to have one very good pair of small monitors for mixing and just use my Eve sub for when bass players like more bass extension and volume when tracking.
/rehearsing and for e-drums at moderate volumes!
My budget is £1500.

I’ve been doing a lot of research and have narrowed my list to the Focal Solo6 ST6 and Neumann KH120ii. Both of these have great reviews and have different strengths and weaknesses.

I’ve been offered a pair of the Focal Solo ST6’s for the same price as the KH120ii’s but I can’t try before I buy do to where I live. I have read SOS’s review of both of these and they both had glowing reviews. I have also read all other online reviews and they are all equally glowing of both products.

- Is my assumption correct regarding using the KH750 + MA1 not being a good idea in my odd room for critical mixing due to not being able to place it in an optimal position? My room is also a kind of odd L shape.

- Would I be better of using just a small pair of decent quality monitors for actual mixing without a sub?

- Has anyone else had experience with both the KH120ii and Solo6 ST6?

- What would you recommend if you could buy both at the same price?

[Drew Stephenson]

I think your assumption about the KH750 might be slightly off.
Most of the improvement between the KH120 and KH120II is from the onboard DSP. Buying a KH750 gives you access to that DSP power without needing to change your existing monitors. The use of the MA1 should also give those monitors a step up again, and should give you better bass response with the sub than your current Eve model.
I was able to listen to most of the KH series with the sub being switched in and out at GearFest recently* and even with material that isn't particularly bass-heavy there is a noticeable improvement when introducing the sub and a similar improvement when introducing the MA1.
I'm not sure if the Neumann web-app allows you to switch the sub in and out remotely? Might be worth a check.

I have heard the Focals as well but not in a comparable context so I can't comment on that side of things I'm afraid.

(My interest being whether a KH750 would help my KH80s sound better. Answer: clearly yes.)

[Hugh Robjohns]

Personal preferences play a large part here. Both are good, high quality monitors, but I've always found the Focals to have a slightly harder sound, more up-front sound character compared to the Neumanns.

Regarding powering the sub, there are remote controlled power switches in various formats which can easily solve your power on-off difficulties.

As for sub location, it needs to be somewhere that works for the specific room modes but, provided the crossover frequency is low enough (below 120Hz really) and of good quality (so it doesn't generate lots of harmonic distortion), then you can put it where ever works for the room modes and not worry about it being centred on the main speakers.

Personally, if you already have KH120s I'd invest in the KH750 and MA1 setup and enjoy the benefits of DSP alignment on the mk1 KH120s partnered with a high quality sub... powered by a remote controlled power switch!

[dickiefunk]

Thanks guys!

To be honest, I wasn't aware of remote control power switches! Do these need to have any specific specs/features and can they have a detrimental effect on audio quality or noise? Is there a specific model you would recommend?

I guess my assumption was if the sub is offset quite near a corner of a slightly L shaped room it wouldn't integrate with the system satisfactorily for accurate mixing. I was also thinking it would be easier to control the bass frequencies in my small odd shaped room without a sub?

I do find that the KH120's can sound a little soft which is why I was drawn towards using the Focals for mixing and use my Eve TS108 for e-drums and bass tracking at louder volumes. However, I haven't tried the Neumann MA1 and don't know what affect this would have on the KH120's?

[tea for two]

I guess my assumption was if the sub is offset quite near a corner of a slightly L shaped room it wouldn't integrate with the system satisfactorily for accurate mixing. I was also thinking it would be easier to control the bass frequencies in my small odd shaped room without a sub?

A desktop Bass nearfield monitor solution could be the Kali IN-UNF.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kali-audio-in-unf

::

I have just these past days also arrived at the realisation a sub makes it easier for me to mix.
I ended up getting a desktop sub with matching desktop nearfield speakers for my untreated room.
I shan't say which as I shall be laughed off the pages of SoS if I did. It was displayed in MoMA Museum of Modern Art not that this is any reason to get it.
It's made a difference to how I am able to mix more readily both Bass heevee stuff as well as standard stuff.

[Hugh Robjohns]

To be honest, I wasn't aware of remote control power switches!

There are many on Amazon and in diy shops etc. I like the energenie brand, but there are plenty of alternatives.

https://energenie4u.co.uk/catalogue/product/ENER002-3

Energenie used to offer a five or six way plugboard with each socket remote controllable. I have several, but they don't appear to be listing it now.

... can they have a detrimental effect on audio quality or noise?

Not in my experience.

I guess my assumption was if the sub is offset quite near a corner of a slightly L shaped room it wouldn't integrate with the system satisfactorily for accurate mixing.

What matters is how well controlled are the dominant room modes. If they're not controlled it doesn't matter where you put the sub, it will always sound lumpy.

I was also thinking it would be easier to control the bass frequencies in my small odd shaped room without a sub?

If you don't put bass into a room, it doesn't matter so much if the low end is uncontrolled...

[dickiefunk]

Thanks Hugh.

So would you advise not using a sub for mixing given my situation?

[Hugh Robjohns]

In my experience, unless the room has very good acoustic treatment a sub often makes things harder for mixing... but trouser flapping bass is very enjoyable and if that get's the creative juices flowing who am I to say no?

I don't have a sub in my studio (which is pretty well treated). I don't find I need it with KH310s. But I do use headphones frequently to check the low end.

[tea for two]

trouser flapping bass is very enjoyable

Which happens to be the title of my infernal beats album : Flappy Trousers : that I've given up on a few months into it as me ears can't cope. Preehaps restart it in winter.

[dickiefunk]

My room doesn’t have very good acoustic treatment and I would probably need a lot of bass trapping to get those really low frequencies under control. I am thinking to just upgrade the KH120’s to either the Solo6 ST6 or KH120ii’s and treat the reflections in my room a little more. This would hopefully give me a more accurate monitoring setup? I can still use my Eve TS108 when musicians like to track at louder volumes with deeper bass.

[Hugh Robjohns]

If you're serious about a big spend on new monitors it would be foolish not to address the room acoustics at the same time (or even before... with the possibility of the improved acoustic control obviating the need for new monitors all together!).

And setting the KH120 treble switch to +1dB might help with the 'soft' sound character in your room.

[dickiefunk]

I should have mentioned that upgrading my monitors is only part of a general overhaul. I'm scaling down on some pieces of gear and I'm looking to upgrade the critical parts.
I have a separate budget for upgrading the acoustics in my room by treating various reflections.

I will try and upload some audio clips taken from different places within my room so you can hear it before upgrading room treatment.
I think one of my biggest issues is being able to really effectively and affordably be able to treat really deep bass frequencies in such a small space?

The reason why I'm keen to get speakers first is because if I decided to get the Focal's I would need to get them quickly before they sell.

However, getting the KH120ii's and being able to use the MA1 is also very appealing!

[jaminem]

Hi there. It feels to me like you are committed to getting new monitors regardless of what advice you're given?

to be completely honest with you, I just don't see the point of changing KH120 k1 to mk2 - if the only reason you are doing it is to get the DSP and MA-1 why not consider Sonarworks?

That gets you to the same place (arguably better as you can use it with headphones too) without any buying (and presumably selling?) any monitors.

You've got the sub already so just switch it on when you want your 'trousers flapped'

Similarly with the Focal's you're looking to replace a monitor with another in a similar price bracket or maybe one higher - and for what exactly? maybe a bit more low end extension which sounds like you feel will cause you trouble since you're not keen on a sub? Sure the focal's use different technology and will have a different sound character due to the tweeter but are really they going to be that much better and are you gonna hear that improvement in what sounds like a dodgy room?

I dunno mate, if it was me I'd use all my budget on the treatment and sonar works and stick with the Neumanns - they are great speakers

[dickiefunk]

These are all fair points.

I’m not committed to getting new monitors as I’ve been in similar positions with gear upgrades before and after trying out some new options I’ve just ended up sticking with what I already have.

I have a separate budget for acoustics and I am going to treat as many room reflections as possible which will hopefully make a significant difference.

The reason why I am considering the KH120ii over Sonarworks is because the room correction is stored on the speaker instead of needing a computer app to be loaded. From my understanding Sonarworks has higher latency as well?Also, Neumann say the KH120ii has also been improved in other areas.

I’m definitely not sold on upgrading my monitors but am curious if something like the Focal Solo6 ST6 with different technology or the KH120ii’s would give me any worthwhile improvements.

[tea for two]

I have a separate budget for acoustics and I am going to treat as many room reflections as possible which will hopefully make a significant difference.

I’m not committed to getting new monitors as I’ve been in similar positions with gear upgrades before and after trying out some new options I’ve just ended up sticking with what I already have.

We had a thread recently, if I recall correctly or incorrectly lol, an OP wanted to get some better monitors. After being advised to acoustically sort the room, which the OP did, the OP reported didn't want better monitors as the acoustic room sorting revealed even more from existing monitors.

::

I’m definitely not sold on upgrading my monitors but am curious if something like the Focal Solo6 ST6 with different technology or the KH120ii’s would give me any worthwhile improvements.

I think one of my biggest issues is being able to really effectively and affordably be able to treat really deep bass frequencies in such a small room?

Is the lowest Hz from an acoustic upright Double Bass for your Jazz, Soul, Funk : apparently 41Hz on a 4 string is the lowest note.

If you would still like to audition get new monitors.
This desktop ultra nearfield Kali with desktop Bass unit made for small rooms is worth auditioning.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kali-audio-in-unf
"A system frequency response of 47Hz‑21kHz is quoted at the ‑3dB points (‑10dB figures are 39Hz‑25kHz)."
"Not having to worry about the placement of a floor‑standing sub takes a lot of guesswork out of setting up reliable monitoring,"
"I’d still be happy to mix on these speakers in a small studio or desktop environment."

Thomann do 30days return.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/faq_question_ ... costs.html
https://www.thomann.de/gb/kali_audio_in_unf.htm

::

My room is unsorted. I've passed over a few large speakers from the 70s 80s, a few current monitors because of this.
For the past few days I use desktop sub down to 44Hz with matching desktop nearfield speakers, having jettisoned my previous nearfield speakers : pricewise both sets are similar ball park. It's made quite a difference in readily mixing both my Bass heevee as well as my other music pieces.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks. I also use my monitors for rehearsing and I’m not sure the Kali system would be able to cope with this?

When mixing the bass is often a 5 string. I also use a few synth patches which have a lot of deep bass content.

[ajay_m]

The TCP Smart WiFi plug costs about £12 and is controlled from your phone. I have two of them controlling the main studio monitors and you can 'gang' multiple plugs to turn on and off together. I just turn the monitors on when I go upstairs using my phone. I used to have a pair of the units that have their own dedicated RF remote control but then they stopped working, I think the controller failed, although the light on it flashed when I pressed the buttons, but nothing could bring the plugs back to life. But these WiFi plugs have been very reliable.

[ef37a]

Some thoughts on wireless mains switches and a slightly OT question!

I cannot see them having any impact on sound quality? Most I see are rated at 10A, 2.3kW (but personally I would not trust that sort of load on one) so the trifling amount of current even a 1000W PA rig would draw from them would be insignificant. We do NOT subscribe to the Russ Andrews view of the universe here!

I am also constantly surprised at the number of people on forums who are ignorant of these things although questions about power management often arise. And BTW they have an inherent safety feature in that in the event of a power outage they remain off.

Lastly, I am trying to buy such a switch for my son in France obviously with their mains outlet configuration. I had a reply from Energenie but they don't do one. Status has not replied in 4 days so far.

Dave.

[dickiefunk]

Hi guys. Thankyou for baring with me! Thought I’d post a quick update. I picked up a demo pair of Focal Solo6 ST6’s at a great price. I’ve been trying them in my room for a week and have tried a combination of mixing and listening to various reference tracks.
These monitors sound quite different from each other and my thoughts are purely my opinion in my room.
The Focals sound very forward and the highs are quite hard sounding. It sounds like there is a lift in the highs roughly between 2-8kz. I’m also hearing a dip in the low mids. I have tried experimenting with the onboard eq settings and I haven’t found a setting that I feel totally comfortable with.
The Neumanns sound more natural and vocals really pop out. I also hear more separation between all the instruments and the stereo imaging and “phantom center” sounds more defined.
As a result, I’ll be sticking with Neumann. I’m going to get my room sorted a little more but I’m not going to be in this room permanently and I can’t really do too much to this space. There are definitely some room modes going on with the sub but I’m not using this for accurate mixing. The EveTS108 goes down to 33hz +/-3dB. I will be getting a new desk which opens up placement options but I’m not sure I will be able to fully get rid of the modes. The sub is mainly used for rehearsal purposes for the bass player to plug his 5 string in, to have a full range system for impressing clients and for loosely checking what’s going on in the sub frequencies when I turn my KH120’s off.
So I am still wondering about the KH750dsp sub. I’m considering the benefits it would bring to my KH120’s but also wondering if I’ll have problems using this sub for accurate mixing with the current room modes? My other options are to change my KH120’s for the newer KH120ii’s so that I can use the MA-1 purely for my main mixing speakers and not have to use a sub. I would keep my Eve sub for the occasions I would like it. Finally, I could stretch to a secondhand pair of KH150’s and sell my sub aswell. However, I wouldn’t be able to return these if I didn’t like them. My monitors are desk mounted on Isoacoustic stands but I would need to change those to the pucks if I went with the KH150’s. Would the KH150’s be okay to use on a desk with ISO Pucks or do they produce too much bass energy that would reflect and resonate on the desk? Also, how do the KH150’s compare to the KH120ii’s used really close (around 1m from listening position)? I heard some people say smaller speakers sound more coherent in close distances but I don’t know how true this is?

[Drew Stephenson]

I'm going to go back to my starting position and suggest trying the KH750 with the MA mic.
You'll get the improved resolution from the DSP in the speakers, better correlation between your mains and your sub, and you'll get some flattening out of your room modes (within the laws of physics).

[dickiefunk]

Thanks Drew. Yes this does seem to be the most likely option.

My only other thoughts are would a sub that goes down to 18hz be wasted in small room with the various mode issues? My Eve TS108 goes down to 33hz and I’m already having issues with room modes. Would a speaker that doesn’t go as low and also have the MA1 system perhaps be a better option (KH150/KH120ii)? Saying that, subs have the advantage of being able to be placed in different locations to help with this. When I had the Focals here with my KH120’s, I experimented with placement and found better positioning for them that improved room reflections and stereo imaging. However, this made the Eve sub sound more detached from the desktop monitors which led me to change the crossover point and output level. This has improved how the Eve sub integrates with the Neumann tops.
I will be acoustically treating my room which should make a big difference and I will be changing my desk which will open up other options for sub placement.

[Bob Bickerton]

Until you fully analyse and treat your room, you can't actually make a useful choice on which monitors to buy. I'd carry on with what you've (checking on headphones as necessary) and spend the money on room assessment and treatment.

Then decide...........

Bob

[rggillespie]

Its a dull option maybe, certainly compared to buying new monitors but I still think easily the best investment I ever made was proper room treatment. Everything became so much clearer and easier to hear. I was astonished by the difference and everything else since has been just an incremental upgrade. Treatment was the one thing that made a night and day difference for me.

[Arpangel]

In a small space you’re not going to have many options, but monitor placement can make or break the sound if you don’t get it right, obvious thing really, as you know.
We spent a good few months playing musical chairs with our studio and monitors, until recently we found a sweet spot, this, combined with a bit of bass trapping, and furniture moving! has improved things from being "WTF! and how bad is that" to being alright "I could live with this"

[Sam Spoons]

The first four broadband panels placed at the mirror points on the ceiling, side walls and back wall will get you 80% of the way there. After that improvements become more incremental.